Scranton is in Growth Mode (Dunmore, Clarks Summit: rent, condos, where to buy)

[scrantonluna]

First off, I voted for McCain. I'm a democrat state and local,
but nationally I vote conservative.

Second, the wealthy have always left Scranton, even when
Scranton was good. Over 100 years ago, Chinchilla and Clarks
Summit were the hot spots, with Dalton being reserved for the
true upper crust of Scranton society.

[blip]

Originally Posted by scrantonluna

Second, the wealthy have always left Scranton, even when
Scranton was good. Over 100 years ago, Chinchilla and Clarks
Summit were the hot spots, with Dalton being reserved for the
true upper crust of Scranton society.

While I'm sure there's always been some exodus of wealthier people, that doesn't sound quite right on a couple of fronts. First, there was a tremendous amount of building of large houses within Scranton a hundred years ago. Second, area natives have told me Clarks Summit was only known for a mental hospital until the highways were built. Most everything around there looks like it's from the past 50 years.. Though they did note that Dalton was always a fancy address...

[scrantonluna]

I don't have my books in front of me right now, I think it was
mentioned in my PCC gravity RR book. I'll post the quote but
it might be a couple days.

The gravity ran in what, the 1850s?

Might have been in my Scranton Trolley book, a mention of the
Northern Electric RW - I'll find it.

[ScranBarre]

With all due respect Scranton has 72,500 residents and is the region's "hub" city whereas Moosic has around 5,000 and would barely be a blip on the regional radar if it wasn't for the presence of Montage Mountain and WNEP, so let's not compare the two in terms of "hurting" from people not living and working there.

In the case of Scranton we have a city that once housed 145,000 people, almost exactly TWICE its present population. As people continue to bleed out of the city, the tax burden grows higher and higher upon those who remain who have to "pick up the slack." Fire department personnel should be based upon square mileage covered, which doesn't decrease despite the dwindling population (in fact the need for a well-staffed department has INCREASED now that the developed area within the city's limits continues to expand). The police department can't be cut because as middle-class and upper-middle-class people are fleeing from Scranton to places like South Abington Township or Roaring Brook Township they are mostly being replaced with lower-income individuals, many of whom are derived from troubled inner-city backgrounds (hence a higher propensity to fall victim to the pressure to commit crime). You can't just stop plowing roads or picking up garbage. There's really no way to effectively cut city services without causing a quality-of-life hardship, hence the need to constantly hike taxes to offset the lost revenues from those who leave.

Scranton gives back to the region through its very high percentage of tax-exempt properties that are enjoyed by people like you and your neighbors (and admittedly myself as I, too, lived in Pittston Twp., another suburb), without paying the city for that benefit. Scranton has three major hospitals, several universities/colleges, cathedrals/houses of worship, Federal buildings, the courthouse, all sorts of government offices on all levels, museums, parks, etc. that benefit the quality-of-life of the entire region and yet burden those who live in the city limits and have to pay a higher share of taxes to offset their presence. I keep a close watchful eye on local property transactions, and whenever I see "Landview Properties to _______" I cringe, as more often than not that is a residential building lot being sold to a middle- or upper-middle-class Scranton family, as they take their tax dollars out of the city with them, even though they will still rely upon the city for nearly everything.

Let's take Cherry Ridge Estates in Newton Twp. as a prime example. That subdivision is literally spitting distance to the city line. Most homeowners there probably moved FROM the city but still all funnel down Newton Road into the city (wear and tear upon city streets), work at jobs in the city, go to church in the city, require services on various occasions from the city, etc., etc. while paying NOTHING for those benefits.

I stand by my SAT comments. It's not "rocket science" to say that the school districts in NEPA with the highest SAT averages are also those with the highest concentration of affluent and well-educated parents. The fact that Abington Heights, Dallas, and Crestwood are always beating each other to be top dog in the region evidences this. If Scranton had the same proportion of white-collar college-educated background families as South Abington Twp., Dallas Twp., Wright Twp., etc., then VOILA---"magically" that school's rankings would spike as well. I fail to see how upper-middle-class continuing to bleed themselves from Scranton will HELP Scranton in the long-run.

[JD CSummit]

Why do you think that people of an upper and middle class level move out of the city? They've worked hard for the money theyve earned and the taxes in downtown scranton are, and have been for quite a long time, way too high. Think about it, you can live in the abingtons and pay 1% wage tax or live in Scranton and pay almost 4%. Which area has a better quality of life? Which area has had a better quality life for at least 2 generations? My dad was born in Green Ridge and lived there until his early 30s (when i was born). It was always his grandmother's goal to be able to afford to move to Waverly and she ws never able to. When he got promoted at his last employer and was able to move he did so. He did so because he was raised thinking that he could be proud of a move to the abingtons and he did just that. Now, you can preach all you want about how people like him move out of the city and up here leaving city residents and their tax burdens behind, but moves like that are generational and were encouraged long before present day. I dont think people up here or in roaring brook or any other suburb have to apologize at all for making a better life for themselves.

You asked what the allure is of living in the Abingtons. Whats the allure of living in Scranton? Yes its the cultural and business hub of the area but really, whats the allure?

[blip]

Just getting caught up on this thread..

Originally Posted by ScranBarre

Total Sample: 187 Faculty Members

Abingtons: 88/187 = 47%
Scranton: 51/187 = 27%


South Abington Twp. : 2007 Pop. 9,493
Total Faculty: 38/187 = 20%


Scranton : 2007 Pop. 72,485
Total Faculty: 51/187 = 27%

I just don't get it. One out of every two faculty members from this nearly all-encompassing sample live in the Abingtons, and what is more astounding is that a township of less than 10,000 is home to 1 in 5 faculty members. What's so "special" about South Abington Twp.? ARGHHH!!! It's the bane of my existence! LOL!

Interesting stuff Scran. Didn't realize so few lived in Scranton.

The U should try to get more to live in the Hill, via housing credits to locals or something. The profs would help the neighborhood, which would attract more/better students, which would improve the University.

[blip]

Originally Posted by JD CSummit

Why do you think that people of an upper and middle class level move out of the city? They've worked hard for the money theyve earned and the taxes in downtown scranton are, and have been for quite a long time, way too high. Think about it, you can live in the abingtons and pay 1% wage tax or live in Scranton and pay almost 4%. Which area has a better quality of life? Which area has had a better quality life for at least 2 generations? My dad was born in Green Ridge and lived there until his early 30s (when i was born). It was always his grandmother's goal to be able to afford to move to Waverly and she ws never able to. When he got promoted at his last employer and was able to move he did so. He did so because he was raised thinking that he could be proud of a move to the abingtons and he did just that. Now, you can preach all you want about how people like him move out of the city and up here leaving city residents and their tax burdens behind, but moves like that are generational and were encouraged long before present day. I dont think people up here or in roaring brook or any other suburb have to apologize at all for making a better life for themselves.

You asked what the allure is of living in the Abingtons. Whats the allure of living in Scranton? Yes its the cultural and business hub of the area but really, whats the allure?

To me it's not about demonizing individuals making such decisions-- they make sense if you can get taxed less and live better.. (Though it's not my definition of better, it's certainly lots of people's.)

Seems the real problem is having basic services (police, education, etc) being paid for on the local level. This will naturally lead to richer people fleeing an area and creating a new enclave where they can pay less taxes. That's not to say that Scranton's taxes couldn't be considerably lower, but they won't be able to be as low as some place with double the average income.

Eventually the luster will fade in current hot spots and they'll experience the same fate, e.g. all the early, inner rings of suburbs around major cities in this country. Our tax policy is just encouraging disposable houses, neighborhoods, cities, and regions.

[shoegal111]

Originally Posted by blip

While I'm sure there's always been some exodus of wealthier people, that doesn't sound quite right on a couple of fronts. First, there was a tremendous amount of building of large houses within Scranton a hundred years ago. Second, area natives have told me Clarks Summit was only known for a mental hospital until the highways were built. Most everything around there looks like it's from the past 50 years.. Though they did note that Dalton was always a fancy address...

Gee, then how does one explain the Scranton, Noble and Oppenheim estates among others? They have been there a heck of a lot longer that 50 years.

[blip]

Originally Posted by shoegal111

Gee, then how does one explain the Scranton, Noble and Oppenheim estates among others? They have been there a heck of a lot longer that 50 years.

Gee, dunno, those in CS? I wasn't around here before the highway system, so I can't speak firsthand about it being known primarily for a mental hospital.

Even if those are in CS, a few estates doesn't make an exodus of the kind that the highways brought on. CS is nice, but it sure looks like the result of post-war highway construction to me.

[shoegal111]

Originally Posted by blip

Gee, dunno, those in CS? I wasn't around here before the highway system, so I can't speak firsthand about it being known primarily for a mental hospital.

Even if those are in CS, a few estates doesn't make an exodus of the kind that the highways brought on. CS is nice, but it sure looks like the result of post-war highway construction to me.

Yes they are in the CS/Waverly area. Clark Summit and Waverly have been vital communities since the Civil War. That area was a key stop on the underground railroad.

I wasn't around before the "highway system" either but I am careful with my facts. I named three as an example but there are many more.