Dam Susquehanna, dammit (Erie, Harrisburg, Wilkes-Barre: 2010, to rent, credit)

[Chefkey]

The kind of barges you would expect to run down the river would never make it past some of the narrowest passages. It would be another Panama Canal project and with so many people living so close to the river it would be nearly impossible not to mention way too expensive. Hydrogen will fuel the next generation of trucks, Busses already run on it in some cities. Hydrogen is difficult for the main public because of the difficult fuel disperstion but for trucking companies it would be easier to set private stations for refueling.

[Rick323]

Originally Posted by jetgraphics

Chattanooga Times Free Press | Tennessee Valley Authority changed region, providing access to power, economic growth

“This is a modern part of the country and a wonderful place to live today,” he said. “But if you look at some of the pictures of the valley before TVA, it looked in some places like the surface of the moon because the river had eroded away virtually all plant life. It was a very difficult place with little power or industry in those days.”

"Aided by the Civilian Conservation Corps, TVA also planted millions of trees to stem erosion and aided farmers through local universities and extension services to improve their crop growing and rotation techniques."

Tennessee Valley Authority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Even by Depression standards, the Tennessee Valley was in sad shape in 1933. Thirty percent of the population were affected by malaria, and the income was only $639 per year, with some families surviving on as little as $100 per year. Much of the land had been farmed too hard for too long, eroding and depleting the soil. Crop yields had fallen along with farm incomes. The best timber had been cut, with another 10% of forests being burnt each year. Much of the population were living in conditions that would be similar to present-day developing countries."

Pictures of the modern Tennessee River
(Of course, they're pretty!)
Photos by John Hayes

So what you're saying is it looked much like the Williamsport area in the early 1900s when it was the lumber capital of the world.

Now the surrounding area looks pretty good to me-time fixed the mess not dams.

I just don't see the wyoming valley as a good area for a dam. The flood stage is 20 or 21 feet. If you built a 15' dam for hydroelectric power (low head turbine), it doesn't give you a lot of leeway for floods. The population in the flood zone is too large.

I believe the susquehanna was used for shipping not too long ago, to move coal. Mules pulled boats and barges up/down stream-so I've heard.

[jetgraphics]

Originally Posted by truthhurts34

I was born and raised in the Wyoming Valley. Sadly, I no longer in live in pennsylvania. I've traveled all over North America. Since I've left the nest, one thing became clear to me. For some reason, people in the valley are not open minded and are scared of progress. for that reason the valley"s population will continue to decline, and the valley will simply become a ghost town( it's close to it now).

The historical population figures are quite surprising.
The peak population was in 1930 census. (86,626)
2000 census : 43,123
2007 (est) : 41,069 <== less than the 1900 census (51,721)

It would appear that the pioneering spirit migrated from the area as early as 70 years ago.

On the other hand, if the idea caught on to make a "Susquehanna Valley Authority" to provide navigation, flood control, electricity generation, convert mainline railroads to electric power, aid manufacturing, and stimulate economic development in the Valley (Like TVA), the area may enjoy a renaissance.

Remember, prosperity is not "making money". Prosperity is creating, trading, and transporting surplus usable goods and services... and the time to enjoy that surplus.

What could entrepreneurs create, trade and transport if there was a navigable river connecting the Chesapeake Bay to upstate New York and central Pennsylvania?

What added value would a series of lakes and locks create for the local population?

What would attracting vacationers to float the Suskee benefit the area?

What would a "Showboat" or old fashioned stern wheel Riverboat excursion offer - to newlyweds?

What would the future hold if visionaries dared to dream?

[jetgraphics]

Originally Posted by Rick323

I just don't see the wyoming valley as a good area for a dam. The flood stage is 20 or 21 feet. If you built a 15' dam for hydroelectric power (low head turbine), it doesn't give you a lot of leeway for floods. The population in the flood zone is too large.

I believe the susquehanna was used for shipping not too long ago, to move coal. Mules pulled boats and barges up/down stream-so I've heard.

Very astute. To use the example of the TVA, the main Tennessee river was dammed for navigation, with low head dams, and locks. But the tributaries in the mountains - ah - they were built high for POWER...
(maniacal laughter rings out)
... and impound excess water to prevent flooding.

Which would be a necessity to prevent overloading the main river when those pesky rain events threaten.

[jetgraphics]

Originally Posted by Chefkey

The kind of barges you would expect to run down the river would never make it past some of the narrowest passages. It would be another Panama Canal project and with so many people living so close to the river it would be nearly impossible not to mention way too expensive. Hydrogen will fuel the next generation of trucks, Busses already run on it in some cities. Hydrogen is difficult for the main public because of the difficult fuel disperstion but for trucking companies it would be easier to set private stations for refueling.

What "kind" of barges do you expect?
Barges come in all sizes and capacities - depending on the waterway. In Europe some barges are only 8' wide and very long to accommodate narrow canals.

Can you give examples of narrow passages?

BTW - hydrogen will not be the fuel of the 21st century, due to several engineering obstacles, not the least is generation and storage.

The promise of H2 is that it can substitute for petroleum based fuels - like gasoline and diesel - in land transport. But it's still too heavy for use with aircraft.

The reality is that H2 for electrical power (via fuel cell), is a net energy loser. It either uses more electricity, for electrolysis -or- it is produced from other hydrocarbons (natural gas).

The worst application for hydrogen is for rail mass transit : hydrolleys / hydrail.

Hydrolley promoters overstate the cost for catenaries, and ignore the glaring problems that face fuel cell vehicles - waste.

My opinion is that traditional catenary overhead power distribution has more benefits, than creating hydrail / hydrolley infrastructure.
1. Electrolysis of H2 requires electricity, hence it will always be less efficient in the use of electrical power. If the source is petroleum or natural gas for the H2, it is doubly wasteful.
2. Every train with a hydrogen fuel cell system (expensive) will have to carry the fuel cell AND the tank of H2 fuel. Catenary fed electric trains do not carry dead weight and are thus more efficient - and faster.
3. Every Hydrogen powered train will require periodic refueling.
4. H2 will require resources to transport it to refueling stations.
5. Catenary fed electric trains that use regenerative braking can feed the power back into the catenary grid for use by other trains. H2 hydrail would either waste the power -or- have to carry batteries (more dead weight).
6. And lastly, the fastest, lightest trains, are all catenary powered - from Europe to Asia. (Shinkansen, TGV, ICE, Velaro, etc,)

Additionally, the catenary could also become a valuable power transmission conduit for WINDFARMS (T Boone Pickens' problem child).

For urban areas, a suspended power grid for streetcars may be the savior for hybrid / electric vehicles. Municipalities could not only use it to power their hybrid police vehicles, but could sell access to the public - extending the range of their vehicles' battery. If trolley buses can run via catenaries, why not cruisers, trucks, and automobiles?

Don't be fooled by gaseous promises of "tomorrow, tomorrow". Hydrogen is not the answer. Just run the numbers - calculate how much electricity would be needed to electrolyze water to substitute for the one million barrels of oil per hour that is consumed every day in the USA. Then try to use "solar panels" as the source of "green energy".
Yup - very discouraging.

It is far better to directly use the electricity generated, to power rail, than waste converting it to H2 and then back into electricity.

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by jetgraphics

Around Meshoppen, PA, the Susquehanna river measures about 0.10 mile across (according to Google Earth). Wonder how deep it is?

The river in a sense is already a set of natural dams, what you'll have is a short area with rapid elevation loss then a long expanse usually 1/2 mile to 1 mile long where you'll get "deep" calm water that loses very little elevation. The issue is that this "deep" water can be walked across during the summer on most parts and I don't think a lot of people realize that. If you looked up unnavigable river there should be side note pointing to the Susquehanna. I'd guess the average depth is only 2 or 3 feet at least on the upper part down to around West Pittston. It's not very deep at all especially if you get a very low water event. You have to understand there is no depth to the river, it's alive and the depths can even change dramatically over time in some really turbulent areas. Let me put it to you this way, you can't navigate a small fishing boat from W-B to West Pittston if the river is down. There's only small areas of the river when it gets low to navigate even a small boat with a prop and if you don't know where they are you're going to start breaking stuff. The entire length of the river is like this at least on the upper part.

Meshoppen itself or Myo beach slightly north where I have my place has vertical cliff across the river. This is why it's popular for boats because it's one area that is deep enough for larger ones. The "beach" side slowly descends to the other side where its deepest. About half way across you'll be up to your neck. All the way across about 20 feet off shore is maybe 10 feet deep. However about half a mile up the river is a rapids that isn't more than 2 foot deep at the very most all the way across. If you get a very low water event even bringing a boat down it is an issue let alone going up.

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by jetgraphics

Can you give examples of narrow passages?

Here's one for you, this area gave both Sullivan during his march and the RR's problems. The RR built a tunnel instead of trying to build along the river. It's not necessrily narrow but the geography itself makes it very hard put anything along the river.

tunkhannock - Google Maps

There are many areas like this.

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by Chefkey

with so many people living so close to the river it would be nearly impossible not to mention way too expensive..

That would the single biggest thing that would make it impossibly expensive. To make something like this work you'd have to build a canal and that means all the property along the length of the river on one side would need to be taken through eminent domain, that in itself is going to be big $$$ even before you start building such a project. Houses, manufacturing plants, farms (that utilize the river and need access)... the list of problems to make such a project work is monumental even before you build.

[jetgraphics]

Originally Posted by thecoalman

Here's one for you, this area gave both Sullivan during his march and the RR's problems. The RR built a tunnel instead of trying to build along the river.

Where's the tunnel located?

- - -

I forgot to mention that engineering the "Susquehanna River Authority" program would probably involve the Chemung (Sayre, Athens) and the Susquehanna up to Binghamton, and perhaps the Chenango river. That would link Elmira and Corning into the SRA program, and boost their economies.

(Poor Endicott - IBM's home town is practically a ghost town)

[Chefkey]

Can you give examples of narrow passages?

The hook right after Wilkes Barre that caused the 72 flood.

This is no longer 1930 and the population has grown, therefore the barges will need to be three or four times as large as 100 years ago to accomodate the increased demand in the area. It wouldn't be fiscally responsible to send five barges towards the south to serve an eighth of America when one freight train can pull the whole thing.