Looking to move to Scranton area (Help Needed!) (Clarks Summit, Bridgewater: houses, casino)

[decafdave]

Originally Posted by ScrantonWilkesBarre

Yes, this area is horribly non-diverse (I believe it is overall 94% white, non-Hispanic, and largely Christian). Yes, I received death threats, hate mail, and even had references made to the "resurrection of Adolf Hitler to finish the job he began" by one classmate in particular who tried to start an anti-gay uprising against me before it was quelled by school officials, but this is by no means a Laramie, Wyoming type of environment, where the townspeople celebrated the murderers of Matthew Shepard and are trying to get a monument built that reads "Matthew Shepard: Entered Hell on XXXX for..." I was frightened to the bone by that psycopath at my alma mater and his leverage of using other football players against me to prove his point, but these are not indicative of all NEPA residents as a whole---just the dumb ones! I got even with him though; he and I had a heated conflict on campus last year, and our campus diversity official did some snooping around on his MySpace, where she found some threatening propaganda that could have had him expelled from the college.

Very interesting discussion. I applaud you, SWB, for persevering in an area of intolerance. Just wanted to point something out though-Your knowledge of Laramie, WY is sadly lacking. The townspeople did not celebrate and the group of people who wanted the statue was actually a fringe cult Baptist church from Topeka Kansas called Westboro Baptist Church. You dont want people to write off your area, so don't make unfair and uninformed comments about other areas. (I dont live there btw lol)

[miamiman]

I was only being "cynical" towards the new transplants because, as you referenced, they are generally only moving here to "get the best bang for their buck" as far as wanting their own little acre of suburbia at a price that is substantially less than they'd be paying in NJ, SEPA, or NYC.

Again, many of the areas that New Yorkers/New Jersey and southeastern Pennsylvania residents are not classified as being suburban. The reason that many are moving, specifically highlighting New Jersey and suburban SEPA is not because they want to move from suburb to suburb, but because they want a slice of the rural lifestyle that their communities likely offered just a few decades ago. The presence of scattered subdivisions does not automatically classify an area as being a suburb. There are some developments in the Poconos that were constructed as early as the mid-1960's, well before there was heavy migration from NY/NJ/SEPA into the region.

It seems as though you would like to use the NY/NJ crowd to cater to your wants and desires for Scranton/Wilkes-Barre. You welcome them there because you believe that they'll provide stimulus to the languid economy, but you don't really want them there if they come with the goal of searching for cheaper housing. There is absolutely no reason why NY/NJ residents should be interested in helping in the revitalization process of Scranton/Wilkes-Barre. Look at New Orleans - the city is completely devastated, and the only visible outside interest is coming from real estate developers, like Donald Trump, who have very little interest in helping to rebuild the spirit and vitality of the city, as much as they want to make a profit off another investment. Sure, it may seem harsh, but it's the way capitalism thrives. Many people do move from a more expensive area to a cheaper area, for the sole purpose of being able to eventually purchase their homes, or for investment purposes, which often drives up the prices of the existing housing stock in an area. NY/NJ residents are not going take pity on an area that has been economically depressed for decades, complemented by residents who resist change.

Unlike the protesting residents of North Pocono, I do see the need for a new high school there by 2010, especially if the amount of newer housing developments in that area continues to increase. From what I've heard, the high school is nearing capacity now, and it would only take a few more developments to push it past its breaking point. I think, if anything, the county's population will soon start to stagnate---people are moving out of Scranton to newer developments in the Abingtons, Moosic, and the Mid-Valley, and a blend of 75% city residents and perhaps 25% NJ/NY transplants are gobbling up lots in North Pocono. It seems as if we'll soon just be spreading the same people around to different parts of the county (which to me seems like sprawl).

There may be a need for a new high school in North Pocono, I only drive through that area on 380, but North Pocono is not Scranton. North Pocono is not too far away from the Tobyhanna interchange, unlike Scranton, has open and developable land, making it prime area for development. Again, just because NYers/New Jersey residents are moving into North Pocono does not mean that Scranton is next. As you probably see on your trips from Lackawanna County to New York, development is very scattered and haphazard. Just because there is a subdivision on one side of a hill or a farm in northwestern New Jersey does not necessarily mean that development continues on the other side of that farm or hill. New Yorkers and New Jersey residents seem to like to settle in clusters, for one reason or another, and the lack of continuity of suburban and rural settlement patterns is just another reason why you can say with such certainty that Scranton/Wilkes-Barre is next.

Many developments throughout the Poconos are around areas that New Yorkers and New Jersey residents have historically frequented, such as ski areas. Lake Harmony in northeastern Carbon County, is nestled near Jack Frost/Big Boulder Ski Resorts, which has been frequented by NYers, New Jersey and SEPA residents for decades. Camelback and Shawnee Ski Resorts are no different. These areas are familiar to many of the incoming New Yorkers because they have been visiting these areas for decades. Scranton and Wilkes-Barre have not been heavily visited by NY/NJ/SEPA residents at anytime in history. Migration to the Poconos has been taking place for decades, indicated by census records that show that Monroe and Pike County have been growing steadily since 1970. If development has been taking place for the past 35 years in that area, then why haven't NY/NJ/SEPA residents taken a notable interest in the Wyoming Valley in all that time?

[miamiman]

I'm not a "quitter," that's why.

It's not so much about being a "quitter," as it is about being a realist. You sound like you have very ambitious goals in helping to foster interest in additon to economic growth, particularly in Scranton. Yet again, you claim that many residents are stuck in their closed mindsets, change is coming slowly, at best, and that you will likely have to commute a long-distance to work. I personally don't see how leaving an area equates to admitting defeat. I have read past posts of yours where you have stated that you are coming to the realization that it is implausible to find what you are looking for in terms of relationships and employment in the Wyoming Valley. To most, that would mean looking for more desirable areas to satisfy those needs, not to stay in the current area and complain incessantly. Those complaints are akin to what you say you cannot stand about the closed-minded, existing residents.

I'm actually planning to move to either Green Ridge or the Hill Section of Scranton in the future to live in a restored Victorian home with my future partner and adopted children while I open my own firm downtown and run for political office. This home of my dreams would likely only cost me $300,000, a far cry from the $900,000 or so price tag a similar large Victorian might fetch closer to New York City. I'd much rather live in the "hustle and bustle" of a very small city like Scranton and be able to escape to a wooded retreat in just ten minutes as opposed to being trapped in NYC/North Jersey and having to drive for an hour or more to experience the same. I'd like to be able to take my children to Nay Aug Park on Saturdays to play ball, hang out at the pool, and see the waterfall or animals at the zoo. The city honestly isn't as bad as so many make it out to seem.

I know you want your piece of the pie, but you cannot have the whole pie. There is a vast difference between what you want and what will likely actually happen. I don't see why you HAVE to live in Victorian in Scranton, when you could very well share a house with your future partner in an area with more opportunity. Sure Victorian's in portions of NY metro area can run you upward of one million dollars, but there are many cheaper options for housing. Many commute in from Dutchess, Putnam, and Orange counties in New York, where housing prices are markedly lower, you are within 70 miles of New York, are surrounded by expansive, rural recreation, all while living in an open-minded environment (sorry I sound like a real estate agent).

While I agree that there are still large swaths of open space between Lackawanna County and Lake Hopatcong in North Jersey, one must also bear in mind that the Hell's Angels even paid a visit to a gated community in the Poconos last year to offer their assistance in combating the growing gang problem in "A Pocono Country Place."

A Pocono Country Place, aka "Project of the Poconos," has seen an increase in petty crimes due to the inability of parents to supervise their kids 24/7. I would hardly attribute the petty crimes that 14 year-old teenyboppers commit to the reason why NYers/NJ residents will bypass ALL of Monroe County to come to Lackawanna. Those same issues would then pop up in Lackawanna County, that doesn't mean New Yorkers are going to be moving to Sullivan and Wyoming counties .

There's also been some recent ugly big-box development in Stroud Township, near Stroudsburg, with a new Kohl's, Lowe's Home Improvement, etc. I work for Lowe's, and I've also heard talk about another Lowe's store coming to Mount Pocono, near to the Wal-Mart store. The entire Route 611 corridor between Stroudsburg and Mt. Pocono and the Route 209 corridor between Stroudsburg and Marshalls Creek are both parking lots most times of the day. Schools have become overcrowded due to the influx of new students that were not accounted for ahead of time. It's not a bad place to live, but it's not a "great" place to live either.

You seem to hate all things that my hint at suburbanism, including big-box retail. Big-box retail is an efficient way for people in rural areas to satisfy their shopping needs. I know there have been frequent attacks targeting big-box retail, because it takes away from local business. But many people would rather go to a store, which is large and with a familiar layout, all of which big-box retail offers. While traffic has increase SIGNIFICANTLY in Monroe, it has by no means caused the roads to become "parking lots" . Just because you have to wait behind of line of cars at a traffic light does not make a road a parking lot. It simply means that the infrastructure in the country has not kept up with the pace of growth. It is irrational for believe that with the growth Monroe County has been experiencing for the past 30+ years, that 209 and 611 can remain two-lane roads. Likewise the migration you state is taking place to the Back Mountain has equated to temporary backups approaching Hillside Road on 309. I have stated that I have family in Lehman, at NO time would I describe traffic going up the hill as being HORRENDOUS .

The overcrowding of school that you cite has been amerliorated quickly by the construction of new campus. Pocono Mountain High School recently divided into an east and west campus, lessening the strain of incoming students on the single campus near the former Mt. Airy Lodge.

If I know of several people now who are commuting between Luzerne/Lackawanna Counties and NJ/NYC (probably including myself in the future), then why wouldn't others be willing to as well? The commuter rail would offer people the opportunity to work on the laptop on the train to potentially shorten their workdays by a couple of hours and/or be able to tele-commute enough on the train to zap a day off of their work weeks. It's not a glamorous thought for people like me to potentially be gone from 5:30 AM-7:30 PM everyday, but it's the price I'm willing to pay to have my Victorian home in the Electric City and a career opportunity that pays a salary suitable to my peers in the rest of the nation (whereas local salaries are depressed).

Lastly, several people communting to NY/NJ from Scranton/Wilkes-Barre does not indicate a trend. All that talk of potential telecommunting and working on your laptop can currently be accomplished, on the Martz Trailways line. The trip between Scranton and Hoboken is expected to take upward of THREE hours, as opposed to the roughly 2 1/2 that Martz offers. Which is the better deal? People have been commuting from the Poconos to NY/NJ for years, waking up at 3:15 or 3:30 AM and not arriving home until 8:00 at night, the train will not magically offer a solution to that issue. It's a grueling commute, which is why people are not going to be will to "tack on" an extra ten minutes to their commutes. By the time you reach Scranton people will have to get up for their 9 AM workday before 3 in the morning.

[miamiman]

Sprawl is sprawl.

Yeah, that's true. The areas around Scranton/Wilkes-Barre are not recipients of urban sprawl quite yet. First of all, many of the communities you cite in North Pocono are still in rural areas, and sprawl is classified as being located in suburban areas. Sprawl is notoriously linked to aesthetically-displeasing development, which is untrue of North Pocono, the Back Mountain, or the Abingtons. Sprawl also stresses car-oriented transportation over public transportation. Since many areas are still heavily rural, it would be implausible to even attempt to establish effective public transit systems in those areas. There is a list out of the most sprawl-afflicted MSA's, and Scranton-Wilkes Barre does not even make the list. Just because a region has suburban developments does not automatically make it an area of sprawl.

Actually, there's a nationwide trend of empty-nesters, young "yuppie" types, and professionals moving from the suburbs into traditional towns and downtown districts again. Both Scranton and Wilkes-Barre have recently announced/undertaken several large-scale mixed-use urban renewal projects that will feature loft housing, condos, etc. that will target these groups. So far there have been two "benchmarks" that can be used to measure the demand for these in Scranton. The "Lofts @ The Mill" complex of NYC-style lofts near Nay Aug Park filled up quite quickly, even with relatively-high prices for the local marketplace. However, a new townhome community in Green Ridge has faltered, even though they have all the latest offerings (stainless steel appliances, granite countertops, hardwood flooring, etc.) We'll see how the other projects pan out.

Again, and again, and again, NYers/NJ and SEPA residents are not looking to move into a faux-urban environment as envidence by the opening of TWO loft projects. Talk to nearly ANY NYers/NJ/SEPA resident about why they're moving to the area. For most it's a quieter, slower pace, a safer environment, and to be surrounded by nature. Those residents do not want to move into the grimy environment that is the Wyoming Valley, help establish development to make the Valley more urban, when they have been trying to escape all things urban, all the while being surrounded by close-minded people. END OF STORY

I know it's a hard reality to face that Wilkes-Barre/Scranton really isn't an attractive area, but to a narrow few, but that's the way it is. Current residents of urban and suburban environments in NY/NJ/SEPA are not going to leave that environment in search of something different for an area that is striving to transform into the area that they just left. As I have stated, as Monroe County has continued to grow, many people have moved into Pike and northern Carbon counties. Those areas have a LONG, LONG way to go before they near build-out. If those communities ever come close to build-out, rest assure that NYers, New Jersey and SEPA residents are not going to be moving into an unattractive valley, but will be moving into other undeveloped areas that will likely exist in between NY and the Pocono Region.

END

[ScranBarre]

Originally Posted by decafdave

Very interesting discussion. I applaud you, SWB, for persevering in an area of intolerance. Just wanted to point something out though-Your knowledge of Laramie, WY is sadly lacking. The townspeople did not celebrate and the group of people who wanted the statue was actually a fringe cult Baptist church from Topeka Kansas called Westboro Baptist Church. You dont want people to write off your area, so don't make unfair and uninformed comments about other areas. (I dont live there btw lol)

Thanks for the clarification, and I apologize. My college put on a production of the Laramie Project a few years back, and some of the details were a bit fuzzy.

[decafdave]

Originally Posted by ScrantonWilkesBarre

Thanks for the clarification, and I apologize. My college put on a production of the Laramie Project a few years back, and some of the details were a bit fuzzy.

Haha that's ok. My english class in college just went over it (which included a 7 page paper) so that knowledge is just trying to escape somehow. Anyways, good luck but I can't imagine taking that 3hr commute you were talking about.

[SKIorDIE]

Clarks Summit, that's all I have to say, nice area

[poconosfamily]

Hi There...There are some really nice communities in the Poconos, especially in Gouldsboro. Gouldsboro is around 20minutes south of Scranton and maybe 15 minutes north of route 80 where a lot of the skiing can be found. Check out lakeviewestates.com. I own here and cant say enough good things about it. The homes are gorgeous, the lake is beautiful, the people are really nice too. You could buy a home or buy land and build your own home which may be more cost-effective too. Craigslist.com usually has lots for sale if you go through the "pennsylvania/poconos/realestate for sale" links on the craigslist site and search in Gouldsboro. Someone has an acre for sale in the development right now. Homes are posted on occasion too. Hope this helps!

Beautiful Views in Lakeview Estates (broken link)

[W-B proud]

I don't know what kind of money you have to spend, but I'd check out Harvey's Lake. Lots of new developments, and beautiful houses. Lakeside ammenities, boating, fishing, sailboating, scubba, jet-ski, water skiing ect. You get the picture. As far as entertainment (this is not NYC!), but for an area our size, we have an excellent variety. Off broadway shows, national musical acts, AHL Hockey, AAA baseball (NY Yankee's affiliate!), Arena football, Mohegan Sun Casino and horse racing, traveling shows (circuses, bull-riding, WWE wresling, moto-cross)ect... There is too much to mention. We are really blessed to have so many options for an area our size! If what we have doesn't satisfy, we're only 2.5 hours from Manhatten. As far as dating. Are you looking to pick up a date? or a place to take a date? The Woodlands comes to mind, the poconos is only an hour away!(for as long as it takes you to get from Long Island to Manhatten during rush hour, you can be in the poconos!) there are many bars and clubs in the Scr/W-B area (so it depends on your personal taste), many very good Italian restaraunts in the area. Like I said earlier This is not NYC, but there is no shortage of things to do around here. Anyway, good luck with your choice! Wecome!

[Boris]

What's the matter with using imagination?
Can't people see potential? Why do so many seek to confirm negativity?
Maybe a habit of making negative observations is simply a sign of a negative personality.
I myself try to be positive and creative.
Why do so few people look at older, plain housing and not think of how nice that "unattractive housing" would look with new, colorful paint, roofing, remodelling and victorian or prairie-type gingerbread and ornamental gardens and pretty picket fences or hedges??? It's sad that so few people have the imagination to do that. So many options are available, in all price ranges, that can turn a plain old company house into a gingerbread charmer.