looking at buying a home with a 30-yr old oil furnace... (lease, how much)

[crackers8199]

...questions i have are as follows (this is in minersville, schuylkill county):

1) it also has a gas fireplace and i'd like to add a gas stove and potentially a gas grill for outside. there are no gas mains around, so i'll have to go propane - how much is that usually going to run me? will the gas company install the lines to the stove and the patio for the grill? (one is already run for the fireplace) i've got quote requests in to both koppy's and suburban propane, neither has gotten back to me yet so i decided to post here (i'm only slightly impatient, lol)...

2) how long can i realistically expect the oil furnace to run, and would i be better off replacing it before it craps out completely? if so, would i be better off replacing it with an 85% efficient oil furnace or a 95% gas one, and run that from propane too? the house is heated with hot water radiators...

3) what's the going rate for propane around here?

any help would be greatly appreciated...thanks!

[DE_NePA]

Originally Posted by crackers8199

...questions i have are as follows (this is in minersville, schuylkill county):

1) it also has a gas fireplace and i'd like to add a gas stove and potentially a gas grill for outside. there are no gas mains around, so i'll have to go propane - how much is that usually going to run me? will the gas company install the lines to the stove and the patio for the grill? (one is already run for the fireplace) i've got quote requests in to both koppy's and suburban propane, neither has gotten back to me yet so i decided to post here (i'm only slightly impatient, lol)...

2) how long can i realistically expect the oil furnace to run, and would i be better off replacing it before it craps out completely? if so, would i be better off replacing it with an 85% efficient oil furnace or a 95% gas one, and run that from propane too? the house is heated with hot water radiators...

3) what's the going rate for propane around here?

any help would be greatly appreciated...thanks!

For rates, check the recent post here "What do you pay for propane". But many companies charge varying rates for propane based on your annual consumption, and there can be minimum charges as well. So, if you want to do the fireplace and cookstove, you're likely going to pay very high per gallon rates vs using propane for those things plus heating the home. If your annual usage is low, some companies will charge you rent on the tank, others will charge you a minimum annual fee, and some don't do either. It's a mess.
You must be careful, and get each company's terms in writing. In the "What do you pay for Propane" thread, Mathjack is paying a VERY high rate while using ALOT of propane. Others like myself are paying market rate while using much, much less. So ask every potential supplier:
How much to get started?
Is there a charge to rent the tank?
If there is, is that eliminated if I use a certain # of gallons per year?
How much per gallon?
Does that vary by how much I use per year?
Is there any minumum charge?
Most propane dealers will run lines. It may be cheaper to have a plumber run the lines, but only the propane company can connect them to thier bottle, and that charge usually wipes out any savings.

More later on which is better

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by crackers8199

if so, would i be better off replacing it with an 85% efficient oil furnace or a 95% gas one, and run that from propane too? the house is heated with hot water radiators...

As you're right in the heart of the anthracite region and can get the fuel at the very cheapest prices I'd suggest neither and be looking at a coal boiler. As of right now oil would need to be about 85 cents a gallon to compete with the cost of coal... that's delivery costs for both. Two of the four major manufacturers of coal boilers are right in your backyard.

efm Heating - Coal Heat - AF Coal Heater / Coal Furnace - The Coal Stoker-Fired Warm Air Furnace

Keystoker

I made an extensive post here if you want to put on your reading glasses and I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have if you're interested.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/house...ers-guide.html

[rcb1966]

See if you can convert your boiler over to coal as per Coalman...great advice. If not and staying with propane, Suburban had the best rates in August of 2008, when I locked in...I went with a 500 gal. tank & buried it. They gave me a commercial rate, maybe $2.50 per gal, but after reading some posts, it is cheaper yet. Stay away from Amerigas (Mathjak's issue)...they are poor on service & high in price. Suburban will run your lines for you. If the house id properly insulated, no matter what you use for heat....the less your unit will run. If you are referring to the age of your unit, as long as it is maintained yearly by a certified tech...if it is cast iron & a Weil McClain or equivilent...they can run forever with good maintainence.

[DE_NePA]

Originally Posted by crackers8199

...questions i have are as follows (this is in minersville, schuylkill county):

1) it also has a gas fireplace and i'd like to add a gas stove and potentially a gas grill for outside. there are no gas mains around, so i'll have to go propane - how much is that usually going to run me? will the gas company install the lines to the stove and the patio for the grill? (one is already run for the fireplace) i've got quote requests in to both koppy's and suburban propane, neither has gotten back to me yet so i decided to post here (i'm only slightly impatient, lol)...

2) how long can i realistically expect the oil furnace to run, and would i be better off replacing it before it craps out completely? if so, would i be better off replacing it with an 85% efficient oil furnace or a 95% gas one, and run that from propane too? the house is heated with hot water radiators...

3) what's the going rate for propane around here?

any help would be greatly appreciated...thanks!

This is a tough one.
At the beginning of this year's heating season, a gallon of heating oil cost 50% more than a gallon of propane. But, since there is 50% more BTUs in the gallon of oil, the cost per BTU was about equal. 6 months later, oil dropped in pricegreatly, but propane has held steady. A gallon of each costs about the same now (at the high volumne market rate of propane, about $2.50 a gallon. This is a very unusual situation, but if it was to be this way from now on, oil would be the clear choice - 50% more BTU per gallon compared to propane, and the same price per gallon. If the per gallon rate is the same, but Oil has 50% more BTU per gallon, that will more than make up for the effiiciency difference you cited (85% for the oil furnace, 95% for the propance.
If I had to bet, I'd bet that oil will eventually go back up rather than propane matching its drop. And so, I'd go with propane for everything, or nothing, assuming I can get the market rate, not the inflated low volume rates.
I can give you a spreadsheet that lays all this out, it was provided by a member hear name TheCoalMan. Not surprisingly, it does demonstrate that coal is much cheaper than both.

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by DE_NePA

Not surprisingly, it does demonstrate that coal is much cheaper than both.

Coal is cheaper than everything especially if you live in this area and that includes wood if you're paying market value. The spread sheet is here:

FUEL COST CALCULATOR!!! - Anthracite Coal Discussion and News

As far as price fluctuations the price in the Fall of 2007 was about $140 delivered. That held steady until about August 2008 or nearly a year as the other the fuels went through the roof. There was about $20 increase per ton mid august. That should drop a little in the spring. The cost of anthracite is has been rock steady for decades, it cost now what it did 30 years agfo adjusted for inflation... You won't wake up some morning to suddenly find the cost of your fuel doubled overnight.

[go phillies]

I would go with natural gas...especially considering its low maintenance compared to coal. Coal may be cheaper, but its dirtier. Not good for the air, and you'll be needing to have your chimney swept regularly. I switched from an old oil furnace (almost 40 years old) to natural gas and my heating bills are less than half what they used to be. Plus, with gas you don't have to worry about getting oil or coal delivered and a constantly fluctuating price.

[Summering]

I had almost a thirty year oil furnace in a home in NJ.........it would really be the time to replace it.
A new one gave me so less trouble and it was so much more efficient.
I did hate the oil delivery part of the process......the price flucuations.
The easiest heat we have ever had was electric. Just because there is no furnace to worry about.
No dust flying in the air from forsed air heating. It is such a clean heat, but it is getting expensive.
( not that the others are not)

[crackers8199]

Originally Posted by go phillies

I would go with natural gas...especially considering its low maintenance compared to coal. Coal may be cheaper, but its dirtier. Not good for the air, and you'll be needing to have your chimney swept regularly. I switched from an old oil furnace (almost 40 years old) to natural gas and my heating bills are less than half what they used to be. Plus, with gas you don't have to worry about getting oil or coal delivered and a constantly fluctuating price.

natural gas is what i really wanted to go with, but there are is no NG service available to this particular home. several of the others i've looked at have gas stoves/fireplaces/heat and swear by it though...so it all ends up being a question of what exact location i end up in.

BTW, suburban got back to me today - they quoted me $99.95 for the tank install, $2.64 / gallon current market price for the propane, and $72 + tax per year to lease the tank. (this is for a 100 gal tank) they didn't give me any estimates on adding the extra line for the stove, but said it can be done (sent them a message back asking for specifics on that). if i'm just using the propane for the stove and the fireplace, i can't imagine i'd need to fill it all that often...

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by go phillies

I would go with natural gas...especially considering its low maintenance compared to coal.

That's a misconception, certainly gas is lower however if you can save a few thousand each year is that worth a few minutes of your time each day? Having said that a coal boiler has very low maintenance especially if you run it year round which is economical because the larger ones come with optional domestic hot water coils. You'll spend less/the same on the coal keeping it lit, this extends the life of the unit considerably as well... and no it does't heat the basement up or very little. the large boilers are insulated and have very low stack temperatures.

The stoker boilers are either auger fed or hopper fed, if you take time to plan and set it up properly you can eliminate the need to supply the coal to the boiler. For example with a auger fed unit you would build the bin as hopper so all the coal is diverted to the worm, gravity is your friend. With the hopper feds what some people have done is built a outside bin and run the coal to the hopper through a pvc pipe. That leaves the ashes and you can auger the ashes outside but this is a lot of expense but it has been done and probably only practical for very large installations.

In a typical installation you'll have to spend a few minutes each day keeping coal in the hopper and take the ashes. How much really varies by temperature, on average in the winter once every two days. In the summer for example you'll only need to do this once every two weeks...

Coal may be cheaper, but its dirtier. Not good for the air,

That s true if you place one of the smaller stokers directly in the living space but it's also true of any solid fuel burner made for that purpose. With a large boiler you can isolate it in a basement room somewhere. Anthracite FYI is one of the cleanest burning fossil fuels on the market if you want to set the CO2 issue aside and they can go as high as 90% efficient. While on the topic it's very suitable for an urban environment, your neighbor will not know you installed on of these units.

and you'll be needing to have your chimney swept regularly.

No you don't. Anthrcite produces fly ash. This ash will accumulate on any horizontal surface like inside a flue pipe or the bottom of the chimney. You need to remove the flue pipes usually once a year to clean this out. In our case we hat a T coming off the back of the furnace so we don't even have to take the pipes off. Simply run a shop vac up the inside once a year. There's some other things you need to do like oil the motors but yearly maintenance amounts to about 1 hour each year all of which can be done by the homeowner.


Just to dd what many people are doing that are in the position of this homeowner is installing them in tandem with existing boilers if they have the room. In the unlikely event the coal boiler goes down you have a backup system or if you wanted to go on vacation in the winter. The one issue with coal is you really need someone around at least once every two or three days in the dead of winter. Granted these are people with recent gas and oiler boiler installations, not so sure I'd go though the effort with a 30 year old oil boiler.