Lackawanna County: What a dump! (California, Penn: appliances, home, school)

[W-B proud]

WBRE just did a segment about Lackawanna County having a major problem with illegal dumping. It has become a haven for illegal dumping in Pennsylvania. Here's the link. PAHomePage.com

[PeeAye Native]

Illegal dumping has been going on in NE PA for 30, no make that 50 years.

The sad part about it there is an easy solution, that can be implemented by local governments. Individual counties (i.e., all municipalities in a county) have to provide residential refuse pickup, with the cost to be paid out of a new county or local municipal taxes, much like sewer taxes. A home owner pays one price and gets all his refuse picked up curb side, no matter what volume he generates, and this includes not only trash, but old appliances, tires, discarded furniture, etc., etc.

The idea being, why would any sane person haul his trash and old appliances out into the forests to dump them when he knows anything he puts curb-side will be picked up based on taxes he's mandated to pay. This is how other states do it (especially sates in the west, and southwest), and there's no reason not to do it here.

[thecoalman]

Why is the answer always to tax it? Let me give you an example as I understand in California for a white item (appliances) there is tax or fee applied to it for "disposal". Here in PA you can take these items to the scrap yard yourself and get paid! You don't get much and it depends on the market value but you might get $10 to $20 for a pickup load of such items.

Now which do you think is a better system, pay for it or get paid? A lot of people aren't aware of this and there is lot of people that make a living collecting these items. Recycling is becoming a scam itself as those items have value, we're gone from a sytem where these items could generate revenue for those that possess them to a system where they are paying people to take them away. When I was kid paper drives were actually a way groups and clubs generated revenue.

As far as garbage collection keep it private and competitive, I pay little for garbage collection and have excellent service. At the most maybe regulating it requiring a residence has proof of garbage collection from a contractor. If the problem is really escalating increase enforcement and punish the people doing it with jail time.

[PeeAye Native]

Originally Posted by thecoalman

Why is the answer always to tax it?

The idea, supposedly, is the amount you no longer have to pay 'per container' to whatever private garbage pickup service you currently choose is about what you would pay in the county-wide garbage tax levy. Just like a sewer fee. Do you think people throw their trash in the woods purposely to pollute? Or are they cheap and trying to save a few dollars?

Getting some cash for scrap is still good, but it doesn't address the root problem, "why would any sane person haul his trash and old appliances out into the forests to dump them when he knows anything he puts curb-side will be picked up?"

[61scout80]

luzerne county is just as bad, and even with city collections the desert takes a good bit of trash here too.

The major difference is here we have plenty of off highway vehicle (OHV) users that clean up the messes. Pa has outlawed OHV use just about everywhere, so the trash gets dumped and no one has any incentive to clean it up.


People seem to think that it is a ridiculous expense to dispose of large items. they see dumping it in the woods as a cheap way to get rid of it. there needs to be some middle ground between taxing and cheap or free disposal. Pollution is a huge issue, especially when someone dumps their hazardous waste on the land you own. then you have to pay to clean up someone else's mess.

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by PeeAye Native

The idea, supposedly, is the amount you no longer have to pay 'per container' to whatever private garbage pickup service you currently choose is about what you would pay in the county-wide garbage tax levy.

Sorry but the fact is when government gets involved it always costs more, can anyone name a government run program that has not run in the red?

USPS, AMTRAK just to name two.... The USPS does not even have to turn a profit yet they are consistently running a deficit in the billions the last few years.

You could argue that private business could contract the work but when they get the contract service goes out the window.

[PeeAye Native]

Originally Posted by thecoalman

You could argue that private business could contract the work but when they get the contract service goes out the window.

From what I've seen, it's just the opposite. Local gov't collects the tax, and local waste haulers get contracts to do the regular pickups. Theoretially, no existing haulers go out of business, no loss of jobs, etc, etc. This is how it's done almost everywhere else, the west (UT, Calif, AZ, WA, and the metro areas near Philly, NJ, NY). There are even maps showing the prevalence of illegal dumping and whether or not contracted refuse pickup is in effect.

Originally Posted by thecoalman

Sorry but the fact is when government gets involved it always costs more, can anyone name a government run program that has not run in the red?

The military? What price do you put on freedom? In reality it is true that a gov't running something probably costs more than private business. However, the alternative in this case is saving a few dollars in exchange for having illegal trash dumps everywhere. Look at what 50 years of not doing this has accomplished. Even when a dump site is cleaned up, someone starts dumping again.

NE Penna is not the only area in the country with mountains and forests, close to population centers. But it is one of the few with a wide spread illegal trash dumping problem that's been going on for years and years. And the solution is county-wide trash pickup.

[thecoalman]

Well I know there's been more than few instances with contractors as of late in the news. Not keeping up with pickups and other problems. It's not a constant problem but still a problem. For example I think there was an issue where one contractor that lost a school contract curtailed pickup in the last weeks of it. They knew they weren't getting it.

Theoretially, no existing haulers go out of business

If your small potatoes then you will go out of business, you'll have a bunch of losers and few big winners. Those that get the contracts will need to be large haulers, a small business will not be able to bid on them. The jobs may shift elsewhere but you may be putting someone out of business that has worked decades to achieve what they have.

Competition is always healthy, from my experience with the coal business I can tell you rates in an area saturated with dealers would usually be a lot lower than what should have been charged because everyone was competing.

The military? What price do you put on freedom? In reality it is true that a gov't running something probably costs more than private business. However, the alternative in this case is saving a few dollars in exchange for having illegal trash dumps everywhere.

The military isn't something private companies can or should be doing, that's a drain. You can't make money doing it as your not providing a service like you would with something like delivering letters or transportation. I'm not saying I don't support military spending either.

I don't subscribe to second part of your argument because we're punishing many because of the actions of a few. Like I said increase the penalties and step up enforcement. I'd much rather see my money go to punishing someone else causing the problem to begin with.

[LNTT_Vacationer]

Originally Posted by thecoalman

. . . . Like I said increase the penalties and step up enforcement. I'd much rather see my money go to punishing someone else causing the problem to begin with.

Increase taxes for enforcement personnel, prosecutors and judges?

Residential trash pick-up and recycling just hits me as what should be one of government's core functions. . . even if they contract out the service.

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by LNTT_Vacationer

Increase taxes for enforcement personnel, prosecutors and judges?

Certainly, if I have to pay something might as well have the people causing me this expense pay for their actions too.