Intersection of William and Pittston Bypass (Scranton, Wilkes-Barre: insurance, neighborhoods, high school)

[monetaryg]

I got a citation about 30 days ago for making a right on red, where it was posted no right on red. I live about 1.5 hours away so I just paid the fine not realizing there would be points assessed. I received a letter saying I now have 3 points on my license and other words making it sound like I am the worst type of criminal. I now want to fight the ticket, I am ok paying the fine, but the points I want removed.

To my actual question. Does anyone else find the intersection of William and Bypass confusing? It is posted no turn on red, but there is a separate "ramp" for the right turn with a yield sign, making it appear as though the light is not valid for that direction. Has anyone succesfully fought a no turn on red violation here?

Attached is an image of the intersection with my travel highlighted.
Thanks in advance.

[EnyaGirl]

Geez...I'd definitely fight that ticket! I wouldn't even SEE that sign if I were making a right, and if there's a yield sign right where I was turning I would obey that before obeying a light that looks like it's for people going straight! I would go to court on the whole ticket, not just the points. Bring these pictures you took. That's ridiculous!

[ScranBarre]

As someone who used to live very near to that intersection and traversed it several times per week I share your pain. I was fortunate in that from all the years riding as a passenger prior to age 16 with my parents at the helm that I had ample time to sit and stare at the "No turn on red" sign when coming up William Street out of the city so that when I finally did start to drive I was already trained not to turn on red. However, this intersection is notoriously confusing for out-of-towners, as a whole mess of roads converge at one intersection.

They have the "No turn on red" posted at the top of William Street so that people wouldn't be pulling ahead to that little ramp trying to make a right onto to Bypass soutbound and be in the way of people from Laurel Street trying to access the Bypass southbound when their light turned green. I know Pittston isn't exceptionally known for its gridlock, but this intersection can become very, very congested at times, especially during the evening rush-hour when commuters who work in Scranton or Wilkes-Barre and live in the Upper West Side have to get through Pittston, when the high school releases hundreds of students, parents, and teachers booking it down the Bypass, and when the churches let out a surge of confused elderly people in Buicks and Cadillacs in the city.

I was in a similar situation back in 2005 or 2006. I had attained 7 points on my license for two separate speeding tickets. I received 3 points for doing 57 in a 45 zone on Route 315 in Laflin (notorious speed trap that I was ensnared into) and 4 points for doing 76 in a 55 on I-380 in Roaring Brook Township, Lackawanna County. I plead guilty to both, paid my dues in cash in person at the magistrates' offices, and then had to go to PennDOT in Dunmore to take a written exam to remove enough points from my license to "save" it from being revoked. It was the most humiliating experience of my life, as I was surrounded mostly by border-line white-trash whining about "I ain't didn't have TOO much to drink..."; apparently I was the only one there NOT for a DUI. I aced the test with a perfect score, and since I believe you lose two points off your license per year I'm "clean" now.

My gut feeling for you would be to fight the points and pay the fine. Any rational magistrate would sympathize with a confused out-of-towner at that intersection and not see any reason to dock you with three points on your license.

P.S. Was this a Pittston Township police officer that pulled you over? If so, then I am beyond miffed that once again they completely neglect and ignore patrolling neighborhoods like that of my parents, which are very vulnerable to crime, in order to harass out-of-towners at the entrance to the township. Nice to see our tax dollars being well-spent.

[monetaryg]

Thanks for the feedback.

I believe it was a pittston city police officer. The ticket is for district 11-1-04. I already paid the ticket, not realizing there would be points assessed, so I don't know if I can fight it at this time. I am stressing now because I had a clean record up til this. I had my first accident yesterday, fender bender in philly, and I am worried about my isurance rates going sky high, or possibly being dropped. I know erie insurance can be tough on any accident or moving voilations. I had a clean driving record for 15 years, but I don't think they care about that. I have seen similar intersections in other towns, but they have stoplights further back.

[ScranBarre]

Originally Posted by monetaryg

Thanks for the feedback.

I believe it was a pittston city police officer. The ticket is for district 11-1-04. I already paid the ticket, not realizing there would be points assessed, so I don't know if I can fight it at this time. I am stressing now because I had a clean record up til this. I had my first accident yesterday, fender bender in philly, and I am worried about my isurance rates going sky high, or possibly being dropped. I know erie insurance can be tough on any accident or moving voilations. I had a clean driving record for 15 years, but I don't think they care about that. I have seen similar intersections in other towns, but they have stoplights further back.

If it was the Pittston City police officer with the Ford Explorer SUV then I've seen him regularly at the Donut Connection. Someone ought to tell these men (and occasionally women) behind the badge that there are more pressing issues than to waste time "hanging out" at donut shops and preying upon out-of-town motorists (such as Pittston's horrific drug problem!) If anything Pittston ought to be encouraging tourism as a means to help spur economic growth from these people stopping in town to eat, shop, etc.

I'm really unsure as to what recourse, if any, you would have if you already plead guilty and paid the fine. I've had friends who have plead not guilty and ended up paying the fine but having the number of points reduced or eliminated altogether through a compromise. I've also had friends who have had the charges dismissed altogether due to the police officer not even bothering to show up to uphold the violation. In your case I'm sure the tax-hungry state still would have demanded the fine, but if you plead your case as a woefully lost out-of-town visitor I'm sure they would have knocked the points off the violation. At this point I don't know what can be done other than giving the magistrate a call and a heartfelt plea for point reduction.

Best of luck to you!

[ScranBarre]

By the way, I agree that this intersection was horribly planned, but then again when was anything built in the 1960s done properly? I've actually seen people blocking parts of the intersection by pulling up right in front of the light and getting a barrage of car horns. There is a "Stop Here on Red" sign when you're coming up William Street from the city, but if I remember correctly opposing traffic doesn't have such a sign at the top part of William Street, coming down the hill from the township. There were also cases of people turning left from Bryden Street onto upper William Street on the green light and then stopping at the red light facing them near the donut shop, not realizing that they were still able to go on through.

It's a bloody mess, but 95% of the traffic is local, so officials probably never really considered it to be "confusing."

[monetaryg]

thanks again.

That was him. It was an older white ford explorer. It seemed like it was a "trap" type of situation. He was behind me with his lights on within 100 feet of making the right turn. He was very rude and treated me like a criminal. I told him I was not aware the intersection was no turn on red, he said "it is posted in 2 places". I tried to find my way back to the intersection but got lost through the little neighborhoods. My first thought was to fight it but I really did not want to deal with driving up there and losing a day of work to fight it. If I knew points were assessed I would have pled not guilty. thanks again. I will call the magistrate on monday. They can keep the money, I just want the points removed.

[scrantonluna]

Paul, traffic stops can and often do lead to drug arrests.

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by EnyaGirl

and if there's a yield sign right where I was turning I would obey that before obeying a light that looks like it's for people going straight! .

The yield doesn't mean you don't have to stop, since you have two lanes converging you need to yield to the other lane when you can proceed forward. That lane really needs the "no turn on red" removed and simply have a yield sign, too short for a stop sign. Really not a good solution no matter what you consider as they all heave their pros and cons, the current setup is actually probably the best but the yield sign might lead to confusion as demonstrated here where drivers think they do not have stop.

[A_D_M]

I fight any ticket I get.
You have nothing to lose (except a day of work). I just recently got a ticket for making a right turn on red too., I knew the sign was there, I just wasn't paying attention.

I played stupid, said I was sorry at the hearing and I was found not guilty!!!