U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Virginia > Northern Virginia
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-29-2010, 11:25 AM
 
113 posts, read 118,651 times
Reputation: 46

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by pcity View Post
The Arlington suit is alleging that one added lane, plus allowing drivers to pay for access to faster lanes that are now HOV-only, presents a civil rights problem because the highway goes through some places where minorities live. It really is that simple, and it's entirely ridiculous.
Tell me you are joking? It is not ridiculous, it is one of the most moronic arguments against change I have read in a while.

It is a 26 sq mile county, therefore, their personal opinions are null and void when it comes to the development and improvement of our area.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-31-2010, 08:19 AM
 
10 posts, read 8,711 times
Reputation: 10
How can these elected officials still be in office? I know it is a heavy Democratic area, but why don't other Democrats primary them to get these idiots out of office? What a complete embarrassment for Arlington County.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-31-2010, 09:23 AM
 
2,058 posts, read 2,429,588 times
Reputation: 1307
Pcity, you must be reading something very different from what I'm reading. Further, you seem to think that the HOT lanes are the only alternative for dealing with our continuing transportation problems. A key point (aside from the environmental and process issues that many people on this thread are ignoring because they want to be able to do whatever they want) Arlington and Fairfax (and many other) leaders have been trying to make for a long time is that more metro, rail, etc. is the long term (expensive) solution, not policy changes on roads. It's time to bite the bullet and face that reality.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-31-2010, 10:15 AM
 
2,058 posts, read 2,429,588 times
Reputation: 1307
The District Court saw enough merit in the basis of the suit to allow it to proceed:

Arlington wins first round in I-95/395 HOT Lanes lawsuit at David Englin, Virginia State Delegate

If the case were as ridiculous as some comments here have applied, that would not have happened. People need to be honest with themselves about how they are looking out for their own self-interests rather than ridiculing others for looking out for theirs and for objecting on legal grounds if they believe at least something in the current proposal violates the law.

If people here would read the case linked previously, they would see that the civil rights violation allegations are only part of the case. There are environmental and neighborhood effects, as well as process, issues (e.g., that the HOT lanes planners failed to provide evidence that the law requires them to provide re: these effects) that also form the basis for the suit.

It appears from the ruling (see the .pdf linked in the above) that *Arlington* asked to dismiss claims against certain individuals acting in their individual capacity from the other claims of its suit, and that was granted.

You may also be interested in a letter that Arlington wrote after this decision to clarify some key points:

http://www.arlingtonva.us/department...page77248.aspx

"Letter From Chairman Fisette Regarding the I-95/395 HOT Lanes Project:


On June 22, County Board Chairman Jay Fisette issued this letter in response to a May 28, 2010 letter from the Northern Virginia Transportation Coalition and others requesting the County Board withdraw its lawsuit regarding the project and work with the Commonwealth to advance the project.

June 22, 2010
Northern Virginia Transportation Coalition
7600 Colshire Drive, Suite 215
McLean, Virginia 22102
Attention: Robert O. Chase, President
Dear Mr. Chase:
I am writing in response to the May 28, 2010 letter signed by you and a number of representatives of business interests in Northern Virginia requesting the Arlington County Board to withdraw its lawsuit regarding the I-95/395 HOT lanes project and work with the Commonwealth of Virginia to advance the project.
You may be surprised to learn that Arlington has attempted to engage the Commonwealth in constructive discussions about its concerns with the project for some time, both before and since the suit was filed. Notwithstanding the County’s efforts, the Commonwealth has been unresponsive.
As is true for all of the localities within the project corridor, Arlington has a number of concerns about whether HOT lanes are the best way to address the serious transportation problem in the I-95/395 corridor. However, it has never been the County’s goal to prevent the project from advancing. The HOV lanes have for more than forty years contributed greatly to the movement of people both through transit and high occupancy vehicles, and any changes to those lanes must not degrade that success. Arlington recognizes, nonetheless, that the highway is a Commonwealth asset and the Commonwealth has the authority to determine how it is used, including for commercial use by a private entity. Accordingly, Arlington’s objectives have consistently been to protect the movement of people so the HOV lanes are not sacrificed for private financial gain, and to properly analyze and mitigate secondary impacts, such as traffic impacts on local roads and air quality degradation.
Arlington has concluded that the categorical exclusion granted by the Federal Highway Administration was improvidently granted. It is apparent that the analysis done by the Commonwealth and its private partner was deficient in a number of respects. The assurance the Commonwealth repeatedly provides that, to quote your letter, “the HOV lanes will operate better than they do today and support increases in carpooling and buses” is based on this flawed analysis. Arlington maintains that further analysis in several areas should be performed to correct the analytic deficiencies in what has been done to date. It is essential that this be done to avoid the certain gridlock that will engulf the HOV lanes and local streets at each access point, and further degrade the already seriously impaired air quality in the corridor. This further analysis can be done in a short period without extraordinary cost, and is expected to identify impacts that will need to be addressed in the project design. Such analysis is something no one should object to. Whether it confirms conclusions reached by the Commonwealth, or identifies where additional mitigation measures are needed, the time and expense are investments to ensure not only that the project functions as the Commonwealth says it will, but also so we all do not come to regret committing the HOV resource to private hands.
As I said, despite overtures by the County to discuss a solution, the Commonwealth has thus far not responded. The concern you have expressed that the Commonwealth cannot re-examine design and access issues while the suit is pending is unfounded. The Commonwealth has consistently been re-examining design and access issues, and continues to do so. The suit precludes nothing including constructive, confidential settlement discussions. There are those who say the Commonwealth has no present intention of advancing the project and prefers to blame this on Arlington. I do not subscribe to this view and remain hopeful the Commonwealth will engage Arlington in good faith discussions so that the County’s concerns, and the Commonwealth’s interests, can advance.
[LEFT]Sincerely,

Jay Fisette
Chair"[/LEFT]

Last edited by ACWhite; 08-31-2010 at 10:27 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-31-2010, 10:47 AM
 
4,540 posts, read 5,242,387 times
Reputation: 2094
My only thought was that it was ill-advised and over-the-top (particularly for a county like Arlington) to sue current and former federal government employees in their personal capacities for decisions they made on the job, and I gather the court so concluded as well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-31-2010, 07:31 PM
 
2,896 posts, read 5,117,340 times
Reputation: 1577
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACWhite View Post
Pcity, you must be reading something very different from what I'm reading. Further, you seem to think that the HOT lanes are the only alternative for dealing with our continuing transportation problems.
Well I may have summarized it a little too briefly, but I think I got the gist of it. Point me to any article that contradicts what I said.

No additional right-of-way is being taken with this project. No neighborhoods are being paved through. This debate is about adding one lane to highway that is already 10 lanes wide, and allowing non-HOV vehicles to access the HOV lanes for a fee.

Arlington County is alleging that the addition of this one single lane, and the allowing of non-HOV drivers in HOV for a fee will significantly impact air quality and add gridlock to Arlington County's roads. This is exactly what Fisette says in his letter: "...certain gridlock that will engulf the HOV lanes and local streets at each access point, and further degrade the already seriously impaired air quality in the corridor."

Frankly, I just don't see how this will occur. The whole point of HOT lanes is that they avoid gridlock by charging higher tolls when traffic increases. I would like to see Arlington County's traffic analysis, because it just doesn't make sense to me.

And the civil rights suit is exactly what I said it was: Arlington County is arguing that because this added lane goes through a part of South Arlington where Hispanics live, it is a Civil Rights violation. On it's face, this is ridiculous. If Arlington somehow prevails, it will be the end of anyone building anything anywhere. Every project that has ever been done benefits areas with a certain racial makeup and impacts other areas with a different racial makeup.

What's funny is that the parts of Arlington that border 395 aren't even the ones with the heaviest minority population! Think about it- 395 borders mostly white Fairlington, mostly white Shirlington, the mostly white Army-Navy country club, mostly white Arlington Ridge, and mostly white Pentagon City. The only predominantly non-white area 395 borders in Arlington is Nauck. Even if the Civil Rights suit had any merit (which it doesn't), it'll fall apart once they uncover the actual demographic data of people living near 395.

Also, I don't think HOT is the ONLY alternative. I would like to see more rail and more density around Metro stations. But I also recognize that driving is a huge part of the overall transportation picture in this region, and it will stay that way for the foreseeable future.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-01-2011, 11:21 PM
 
Location: VA
10 posts, read 30,081 times
Reputation: 13
I live and pay high taxes to live here.
The original VDOT plan could have been better.
However, Arlington County should not be suing individuals like this.

They will soon get a taste of their own medicine I believe when they get sued personally for violating peoples 4th amendment rights!

Then they get to see what its like.

We have a bunch of no less than idiots in office in Arlington right now, they are anti business, and anti growth unless they can get a slice of the action. They say one thing and do another!

How corrupt is Arlington County?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-02-2011, 08:30 AM
 
2,058 posts, read 2,429,588 times
Reputation: 1307
Default replies in -- --

Well I may have summarized it a little too briefly, but I think I got the gist of it. Point me to any article that contradicts what I said.

--I posted the letter from Fisette above, which partially contradicts what you said.--

No additional right-of-way is being taken with this project. No neighborhoods are being paved through. This debate is about adding one lane to highway that is already 10 lanes wide, and allowing non-HOV vehicles to access the HOV lanes for a fee.

--Arlington disputes some of this.--

Arlington County is alleging that the addition of this one single lane, and the allowing of non-HOV drivers in HOV for a fee will significantly impact air quality and add gridlock to Arlington County's roads. This is exactly what Fisette says in his letter: "...certain gridlock that will engulf the HOV lanes and local streets at each access point, and further degrade the already seriously impaired air quality in the corridor."

Frankly, I just don't see how this will occur. The whole point of HOT lanes is that they avoid gridlock by charging higher tolls when traffic increases. I would like to see Arlington County's traffic analysis, because it just doesn't make sense to me.


--A major point of the letter is that the state law requires that the plans clearer show the traffic and environmental impact, rather than have this dissolve into arguments over unsubstantiated opinions. It may well be that you are right that air quality won't decline and gridlock won't increase, but you may be wrong. It's simply unfair to characterize Arl. Co.'s requests, which are consistent with state law and which have apparently been blown off by the State machinery, as meritless, ridiculous, etc. They have legitimate questions that may have acceptable answers but until the questions are answered, we won't know.

And the civil rights suit is exactly what I said it was: Arlington County is arguing that because this added lane goes through a part of South Arlington where Hispanics live, it is a Civil Rights violation. On it's face, this is ridiculous. If Arlington somehow prevails, it will be the end of anyone building anything anywhere. Every project that has ever been done benefits areas with a certain racial makeup and impacts other areas with a different racial makeup.

--But as you yourself acknowledge, this is not the ONLY argument that Arl. makes, and the Co. argues that the plan should be investigated as to its impact. One reason that we have civil rights laws is to protect disproportionate impact on groups who have been disproportionately affected by past decisions. If no one has investigated whether this set of decisions would violate these protections, then Arl. is absolutely right that this should be done before proceeding.--

What's funny is that the parts of Arlington that border 395 aren't even the ones with the heaviest minority population! Think about it- 395 borders mostly white Fairlington, mostly white Shirlington, the mostly white Army-Navy country club, mostly white Arlington Ridge, and mostly white Pentagon City. The only predominantly non-white area 395 borders in Arlington is Nauck. Even if the Civil Rights suit had any merit (which it doesn't), it'll fall apart once they uncover the actual demographic data of people living near 395.


--There are considerable numbers of Latinos and other people of color beyond what you describe in the area. Enter 22206 or an Alexandra zip near 395 here:

http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/explorer?hp

Finally, you are pre-judging the CR suit merit before arguments have been made. I personally would like to see the case Arl. and Alexandria (and the other county officials supporting this) intend to make first.--

Last edited by ACWhite; 01-02-2011 at 08:43 AM.. Reason: added link
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-02-2011, 08:40 AM
 
2,058 posts, read 2,429,588 times
Reputation: 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by hvacrsteve View Post
I live and pay high taxes to live here.
The original VDOT plan could have been better.
However, Arlington County should not be suing individuals like this.

They will soon get a taste of their own medicine I believe when they get sued personally for violating peoples 4th amendment rights!

Then they get to see what its like.

We have a bunch of no less than idiots in office in Arlington right now, they are anti business, and anti growth unless they can get a slice of the action. They say one thing and do another!

How corrupt is Arlington County?
They are in favor of smart growth, and the Arlington model that has actually succeeded has been studied by many other communities, including those trying to re-make Tysons to see if the ideas could be adapted for others. Arl. has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the US. It's hardly an anti-business county. It is a success story of mostly competent leadership and services. If the leadership hadn't fought years of encroachment and poor planning by others, there would be no Arlington at all today, or it would be simply an undesirable ghetto people drive over.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2011 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $89,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Virginia > Northern Virginia
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:14 PM.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top