What's the youngest GS 13,14,15, or SES you know? (salary, military)

[LuvVA]

I have over 20 years of experience in IT.... Looking to apply for a job (GS-14).

How long it will take to reach GS-15 if I get/take this job?

[lqda4]

It seems like there are more and younger high grade civilians in non-DoD agencies and departments at HQ levels. In DoD, the civilians are stuck with "equivalent" military ranks, i.e. you can't outrank your O6... Am I correct?

[Carlingtonian]

LQDA4, I don't think that's necessarily true. Although an O-6 (colonel/Navy captain) equals a GS-15 or a GS-14 in the upper steps, I have seen a few young GS-15s at DoD--but fewer than I've heard about at other agencies. But I'd agree with you that compared to other agencies, DoD (depending on the agency and location) is conservative in its grading of civilian positions. (This is the worst in the service branches, especially when you get away from DC.) Still, where I worked (HQ agency of 99% civilians), I really didn't see too many people who got promoted without having done the job first. I can think of one SES who was an obvious dullard (uttering phrases like "shoulda went" at meetings), but that person was an exception--and even in that case, the person had done the job and risen through the ranks. My sense is that promotions overall were pretty fair.

Contrast that with what I've personally seen at other agencies and what I've heard from relatives who work for non-DoD agencies: Some agencies and managers promote people much faster than they should, depending on who it is. Some bend over backwards to hire people from various non-meritocratic systems--e.g., the Presidential Management "Fellows" (formerly and more accurately "Interns," since they start out with zero work experience) program--which I think of as "affirmative action for (mostly) white people." Those people aren't any smarter than anyone else; the governing criterion for that program is "well roundedness."

Moreover, some agencies (and leaders) have a "youth fetish," in that they think any young person (especially someone good-looking) who kisses up to them is some font of brilliance. There truly is an observable phenomenon whereby some bright-faced young thing is mentored where others are not, is given credit for things she or he did not do, and ends up being promoted earlier and more often. I think among insecure managers, there's a subconscious desire to be liked by those they perceive as desirable (to themselves or others), as well as a tendency to overvalue newness and an outgoing personality--while undervaluing experience, analytical ability, and humility.

It used to be (starting with Teddy Roosevelt and ending I think in the '70s) that you took a Civil Service exam to join the government; I think that was a lot more fair than what we have now (once they ended racial discrimination). Even the Foreign Service (which usually requires an exam) has loopholes for certain favored groups--e.g., the Charlie "I Fraudulently Occupied a Manhattan Rent-Controlled for Years" Rangel Fellowship, which gets his chosen proteges into the Foreign Service with no exam, no group exercise, and no standard interview. Criminal.

But to answer the original question: Youngest SES I knew of was maybe 38 or 40--the head of one branch of a DoD law enforcement agency. In that environment, I assumed this guy worked his way up.

[gomason]

I know a 29 yo gs15 and its an Army agency. Almost everyone at my agency is a gs-11 because 80% of the employees have a PhD. The Army is complaining we have too many high GSs tho.

Carlingtonian, being a PMF or any other intern doesnt mean you dont have work experience. Many young people like me have been working since 16. I have a coworker who was hired through the internship program when he was about 25 and had been working for the army since he was like 16. And I wouldnt sneeze at PMFs. Like 95% of applicants are unsuccessful.

[ChristineVA]

I work for DoD. Our youngest SES was about 35 when she got the promotion. She's an engineering type and had plum jobs in the government since she was out of college. She is definitely experienced in the area she works.

Most of our GS15s, have worked up through the ranks and are anywhere from about age 40-65.

It's at GS-14 level that we see some young ages. In my office I have one who just turned 30. She's really sharp and does just as well, if not better, than the other 14s who have more experience. It's not really about her age, she's just really smart and catches on quickly.

[austindoxie1972]

Originally Posted by lqda4

It seems like there are more and younger high grade civilians in non-DoD agencies and departments at HQ levels. In DoD, the civilians are stuck with "equivalent" military ranks, i.e. you can't outrank your O6... Am I correct?

When looking for a federal job, I avoided DoD. And I'm from a military family and worked many DoD contracts. Lots of respect here--but they don't promote their civilians fast enough. A guy here, who came from Army, was absolutely shocked at how fast people move up the chain. His head was spinning. But I'm not surprised at all.

[ChristineVA]

Originally Posted by austindoxie1972

When looking for a federal job, I avoided DoD. And I'm from a military family and worked many DoD contracts. Lots of respect here--but they don't promote their civilians fast enough. A guy here, who came from Army, was absolutely shocked at how fast people move up the chain. His head was spinning. But I'm not surprised at all.

What is considered fast?

I went from 13 to 15 in 5 years. Granted, the positions have to come open to move into and if no one moves, you certainly can't expect to be promoted in place. I was lucky that people moved around a created positions to backfill.

[Carlingtonian]

Originally Posted by gomason

I know a 29 yo gs15 and its an Army agency. Almost everyone at my agency is a gs-11 because 80% of the employees have a PhD. The Army is complaining we have too many high GSs tho.

The Service branches (that is, Army, Navy, USMC, USAF--versus the HQ agencies) are among the worst offenders. A full-fledged first-line supervisor should be a GS-14--not a 13. (Defense Media Activity, though an HQ agency, is also guilty of this undergrading.) I think part of it is the institutional aversion to paying civilians more in base salary than a military officer who supervises more people--but this rationale overlooks the fact that officers (and enslisted) get basic allowance for housing (BAH), which around here is thousands per month. I did the math once, and an officer of my equivalent rank/experience gets about $3000/month in BAH tax-free--on top of salary.

I think it's also that the Services have a largely rural culture, being made up disproportionately of people from rural areas. I've noticed that the more far-flung job openings are often much lower graded, even with the same responsibilities as a job here in the greater DC area.

Originally Posted by gomason

Carlingtonian, being a PMF or any other intern doesnt mean you dont have work experience. Many young people like me have been working since 16. I have a coworker who was hired through the internship program when he was about 25 and had been working for the army since he was like 16.

OK, but doing what? I've been working since I was 16 too--starting with various low-wage jobs. At any rate, if someone's prior experience is so exceptional, that should get them in the door the normal way, like everyone else.

Originally Posted by austindoxie1972

When looking for a federal job, I avoided DoD. And I'm from a military family and worked many DoD contracts. Lots of respect here--but they don't promote their civilians fast enough. A guy here, who came from Army, was absolutely shocked at how fast people move up the chain. His head was spinning. But I'm not surprised at all.

Well, I'm a civilian who's worked for two DoD agencies, and overall I've had FAR better managers at DoD than outside it (including in private industry). And overall, my take is that promotions at DoD are pretty fair and above-board, compared with what relatives who work for other agencies have told me about. At my last DoD agency, there was a well-trodden path from GS-12 to GS-15.

[aduma]

Will be a 14 a few weeks after my 29th birthday. Got into an FCIP program that was a GS7 - 13 at DHS, then jumped ship when I was a GS12 for a position that was a 12/13/14 ladder.

I'm old for my graduating class and did an 8 month stint at another agency so I had to do 20 months as a GS7, so I know a few folks that were in my program with me who will be GS14 at 27.

Look at it this way if you graduate in 4 years at a normal age:

22- GS7
23- GS9
24- GS11
25- GS12
26- GS13
27- GS14
28- GS15

My advice...find a niche field in the DC area. Acquisition and contracting is a hot field...although it's not fun.

[Forehead]

Originally Posted by aduma

Look at it this way if you graduate in 4 years at a normal age:

22- GS7
23- GS9
24- GS11
25- GS12
26- GS13
27- GS14
28- GS15

Yeah, it doesn't work that way for 99% of government workers, I'd guess. Look at everything that lined up for you.

1. You got into a program that had a 13 step included. Many of the "ladder" positions at my agency only go up to 12.

2. You were able to jump, as a 12, to a new position that included a 14. You had the qualifications (presumably), were in the right place at the right time, struck while the iron was hot, so to speak, and got selected. Most people don't get that lucky.

Since this got bumped, I'll update, I did wind up getting my 14, a month or so after I turned 35. In my agency, that's still on the young end of things. I spent four years as a GS-12, biding my time until a spot opened up, then I managed to get the next level 18 months later due to a re-org and another spot opening up. Many, many people never make it past the GS-12 level. Most of the jobs are for single grades beyond that, where you have to keep re-applying or looking around if you want to advance one grade.

Count your blessings and work keep working hard.

Also, I don't know if there were any updates to this, but the program you used was being phased out.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...122502099.html