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Old 07-12-2011, 04:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pvnova View Post
I totally protest mixing ESOL and FRL. These are two totally different things, and while one could be positive, the other is definitely negative.
Take Spring Hill Elementary. A lot of kids are learning English, from France, Italy, Korea, Russia, India, China etc etc etc. And 2% FRL. It is a wonderful learning environment preparing kids for our globalized (and still rapidly globalizing) modern world. And one of the best elementary schools in the county (and country), earning high marks in countrywide competitions in, say, English.
Not much hooligans among them. Unlike in the schools with different kind of diversity, or without diversity at all but still labeled as "diverse" by politicians.

It is like generalizing immigration and immigrants. There are illegal immigrants, who break a law crossing the border, break a law illegally staying, break a law illegally working, break a law driving without license, break a law not paying taxes on cash received, break a law overcrowding housing units, break a law using false identities and forged documents etc etc etc - habitual and perpetual criminals who have no second thought about breaking a law or two or ten if it brings them more money.

And there are legal professional immigrants, outstanding researchers and simply highly educated professionals who are valuable enough for American companies to wait for them a year or more while DOL, DHS, FBI, INS (or how it is called now) and Department of State are running their checks and waiting for their quotas.

No two groups can possibly be different, and mixing them is at best disingenuous. Very much like mentioning ESOL and FRL in one breath.
Just as there are some who are quick to label FRL students and neighborhoods negatively, there are others with nativist tendencies who don't look kindly on ESOL students and neighborhoods. If that bothers you, you might want to store the petard for a while, lest the hoisting become too painful.

I've never heard anyone complain that Spring Hill had too many ESOL students, though (it's only around 10%). On the other hand, some people don't want to send their kids to an elementary school that has almost 1000 students. Most elementary schools in Vienna, McLean and North Arlington are smaller.

Last edited by JD984; 07-12-2011 at 05:37 PM..
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Old 07-13-2011, 09:40 AM
 
153 posts, read 236,141 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEB77 View Post
Just as there are some who are quick to label FRL students and neighborhoods negatively, there are others with nativist tendencies who don't look kindly on ESOL students and neighborhoods. If that bothers you, you might want to store the petard for a while, lest the hoisting become too painful.
It does not bother me at all, people exhibit all kinds of unsubstantiated prejudices. While they are not pushing them to other people's minds, they hurt only themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEB77 View Post
I've never heard anyone complain that Spring Hill had too many ESOL students, though (it's only around 10%).
13.1%. It's higher than my tolerance level for FRL, while ESOL... the more the merrier. Have you seen their gym with all the flags of countries where the kids are coming from? Most of the kids speak English fine though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEB77 View Post
On the other hand, some people don't want to send their kids to an elementary school that has almost 1000 students. Most elementary schools in Vienna, McLean and North Arlington are smaller.
900 students is the lowest of my concerns. Being able to choose from 2 GT level IV classes at each grade, plus the level III class, while not even being a GT center bringing children from other schools is nice though. Plus 2 SACC locations (one in school, one across the road in the RECenter with access to pool and other classes) was also a nice feature for us. But the best were the people. Our current school with only 600 students, a GT center with 5% FRL (vs 2% FRL in Spring Hill) is worse. Mostly due to our egalitarian-minded principal admixing non-GT-eligible kids to GT classes and thus lowering the level of GT classes , not because of the size (size does not matter if it is large enough to have the needed facilities and after-school activities).
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Old 07-13-2011, 09:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pvnova View Post
It does not bother me at all, people exhibit all kinds of unsubstantiated prejudices. While they are not pushing them to other people's minds, they hurt only themselves.

13.1%. It's higher than my tolerance level for FRL, while ESOL... the more the merrier. Have you seen their gym with all the flags of countries where the kids are coming from? Most of the kids speak English fine though.
There are lots of schools in this area with many flags displayed. Personally, I believe that kids can get a good education at almost any school in Fairfax County (including those in or near Vienna). Of course, people look for what they think is the best fit. Some parents might prefer that their kids attend schools with somewhat higher percentages of FRL students, and fewer children of smug parents who neither write nor speak English particularly well, but nevertheless find a way through their words and actions to communicate a disdain for other parents and children.

Last edited by JD984; 07-13-2011 at 11:06 AM..
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Old 07-13-2011, 10:54 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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Originally Posted by pvnova View Post
Sure, if a teacher in the complexity of topics and pace of education caters to the "110 to 120" crowd (and in the case of NoVa upper middle class, it's often "120 to 130"), it would impede education of kids with IQs of 85 and below (which is what FRL kids typically have). To each his own, and all that forced mixing is totally counterproductive from the viewpoint of educating every kid to the best of HIS or HER abilities.

My post was not addressing the issue of mixing 125's and 85s. It was the issues with mixing the 140+'s ("wait - what did the teacher say - I wasnt listening, I was thinking about faster than light travel" ) with the 125's, ("Im smart but im not a weirdo like youknowho") which is the standard practice at GT centers today.

It might not be so bad for the 125s to mix with the 85s. The 125s are going to be the folks running things, administering things, etc, etc. They need to know about the folks they expl- oops, lead and manage. And of course they need to be prepared to shelter the 85s from the more dangerous ideas the 145's come up with
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Old 07-13-2011, 12:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
My post was not addressing the issue of mixing 125's and 85s. It was the issues with mixing the 140+'s ("wait - what did the teacher say - I wasnt listening, I was thinking about faster than light travel" ) with the 125's, ("Im smart but im not a weirdo like youknowho") which is the standard practice at GT centers today.

It might not be so bad for the 125s to mix with the 85s. The 125s are going to be the folks running things, administering things, etc, etc. They need to know about the folks they expl- oops, lead and manage. And of course they need to be prepared to shelter the 85s from the more dangerous ideas the 145's come up with


Great post. Not that I agree much, but it is funny.

I am not sure you expect a serious answer, but a couple points anyway.

People with IQ 140+ are so rare (0.5% of population or so) and at the same time so valuable to the society (almost all innovation comes from us ) that giving future managers and others at least a glimpse of that is useful. I support TJ, but removing top few percent from all high schools, while extremely useful to the kids in TJ, deprives others of the important interaction, and that is a bad side of the equation.

85- are totally useless (worse than useless in fact due to high crime levels and general destructiveness of this group) to our society even now, in 15 years when our elementary school students will start to work productively they will be useless even in China. The only interaction with these people needed is to tame them with some entertainment (TV is great for that) and shelter them somewhere far away. And make sure they don't breed too much, because the costs of supporting them skyrocketed (especially when some corrupt politicians insists on housing them in some of the most expensive places in the country).

I guess some snobbery should be taught to some and obedience to others to get away from egalitarian (wrong) ideas faster. "All people are DIFFERENT, repeat that kids...", " 'égalité, fraternité' and 'all people are created equal' are useful slogans when you need to use inferiority complex of the inferior masses to further your interests, but use them with care, kids..."
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Old 07-13-2011, 12:42 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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Originally Posted by pvnova View Post


Great post. Not that I agree much, but it is funny.

I am not sure you expect a serious answer, but a couple points anyway.

People with IQ 140+ are so rare (0.5% of population or so) and at the same time so valuable to the society (almost all innovation comes from us ) that giving future managers and others at least a glimpse of that is useful. I support TJ, but removing top few percent from all high schools, while extremely useful to the kids in TJ, deprives others of the important interaction, and that is a bad side of the equation.
I suppose this could give the 125s practice in torturing and abusing the 140+s. Also the 140+s could find themselves bored to tears in the GT centers, not only cause the intellectual level of the assignments is too low, but because the whole approach of most assignments is wrong. then falling BEHIND in their homework, and being told "they dont really belong in the GT center if they cant keep up"

This would be excellent preparation for large sectors of the workplace.

Or we could realize that GT centers actually only make sense for the rare part of the population that really needs them. And have the courage to tell upper middle class suburban parents with smart, but pretty much normal kids, that no, their kids DONT need a GT center, and that GT education is really special needs education, just like ED centers, its NOT a marker that your kid is smart.

As for putting 140+ kids with the 125s to benefit the 125s, the 125s dont really need it. They are in the optimal spot in our society - smart enough to do just about everything that needs doing (and that is remunerated) but not so smart as to get obsessed with thinking about justice and right structure of society or things like that. If they can benefit from being with the 145s, well im pretty sure that the 85s will benefit from being with the 125s'. The 125s could tutor and mentor the 85s.

In reality, its more likely that some 145 will spend time tutoring an 85 ("its the RIGHT thing to do mom, I HOPE it looks good on my college app") while the 125s pursue the main chance ("nah, Ive got enough community service on my resume, I need to add some leadership stuff")

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Old 07-13-2011, 12:44 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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Originally Posted by pvnova View Post


" 'égalité, fraternité' and 'all people are created equal' are
ideas developed by 140+ folks, that 125 folks never do understand.

Like I said, you gotta keep those dangerous 140+ ideas under wraps.
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Old 07-13-2011, 12:54 PM
 
5,070 posts, read 8,606,610 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pvnova View Post


Great post. Not that I agree much, but it is funny.

I am not sure you expect a serious answer, but a couple points anyway.

People with IQ 140+ are so rare (0.5% of population or so) and at the same time so valuable to the society (almost all innovation comes from us ) that giving future managers and others at least a glimpse of that is useful. I support TJ, but removing top few percent from all high schools, while extremely useful to the kids in TJ, deprives others of the important interaction, and that is a bad side of the equation.

85- are totally useless (worse than useless in fact due to high crime levels and general destructiveness of this group) to our society even now, in 15 years when our elementary school students will start to work productively they will be useless even in China. The only interaction with these people needed is to tame them with some entertainment (TV is great for that) and shelter them somewhere far away. And make sure they don't breed too much, because the costs of supporting them skyrocketed (especially when some corrupt politicians insists on housing them in some of the most expensive places in the country).

I guess some snobbery should be taught to some and obedience to others to get away from egalitarian (wrong) ideas faster. "All people are DIFFERENT, repeat that kids...", " 'égalité, fraternité' and 'all people are created equal' are useful slogans when you need to use inferiority complex of the inferior masses to further your interests, but use them with care, kids..."
Unless you are proposing to replace James Madison HS in Vienna with the "PVNova Institute of Eugenic Research," I'd suggest you're taking this thread way off-topic.
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Old 07-13-2011, 01:11 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,746 posts, read 10,658,166 times
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Originally Posted by JEB77 View Post
Unless you are proposing to replace James Madison HS in Vienna with the "PVNova Institute of Eugenic Research," I'd suggest you're taking this thread way off-topic.

all people are created equal WAS said by Thomas Jefferson and there ARE places here named after him like ... oops, never mind. fuggedaboutit
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Old 07-13-2011, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Brambleton, VA
2,136 posts, read 4,630,327 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pvnova View Post

People with IQ 140+ are so rare (0.5% of population or so) and at the same time so valuable to the society (almost all innovation comes from us ) that giving future managers and others at least a glimpse of that is useful.
I am a 140+ but I was also an FRL. Hmm. Hopefully I was useful to those unfortunate fortunates who were forced to share a classroom with me.
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