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Old 09-13-2011, 02:14 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEB77 View Post
Fern435's post was indeed thought-provoking. Most of her posts are.

Quite honestly, the reaction that it triggered on my part was the following: about 90% of the TJ parents and students that I've met are humble, cool, smart people; the 10% who are not - and who look for any and every opening to bring up TJ and talk about it ad nauseam - can be insufferable bores; and making judgments or assumptions about the 90% based on the conduct of the 10% is silly (and that's what she probably had to put up with all too often, even though she clearly fell in the former category).
I cant speak for Fern, but I personally do not think all the folks with issues about TJ have the issues because they encountered insufferable bores.

 
Old 09-13-2011, 02:17 PM
 
5,125 posts, read 10,064,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
There also some folks who do NOT look for any and every opening, but speak about it when others bring it up, or where it is otherwise relevant, and yet are accused of bringing it up at every opportunity.
I see where you are going with this, and I am referring to people I know, as you would say, "IRL."
 
Old 09-13-2011, 02:39 PM
 
19,198 posts, read 31,425,821 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
More accurately, my comparison was one between your justification of eugenics and scientific materialism, rather than science (or scientism) as a whole vs. communism.
Odd then that so little of this made it into the first go-around. It's as if your original claim were now being rewritten from scratch. And of course, I proposed no justification of eugenics, but merely commented on its non-erroneousness as evidenced by its important representations under a different name today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
Still, would you not acknolwedge that the scientific materialist aspect of communism shares ancestry, metholodgy and terminology with scientism?
The only things that have much at all in common with "scientism" are other pejoratives deliberately concocted so as to enable an appearance of presenting an argument when no actual argument is at hand. If you would deny materialism meanwhile, please offer at least one example of evidence to suppose that any non-material (i.e., supernatural) realm is in actual existence. Poesy and whimsy of course do not count.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
Sadly, this is not simply not so in practice. Scientists are people and they too are subject to the same kinds of hubris and conviction that the less exalted have. Sometimes, the ego of the brightest gets the better of the latter. Far, far too often in fact.
Got data, or just more hyperbole? The daunting fear of experimental bias is a scientific researcher's at least career-long companion. This is why review for bias along with double-blind and other bias-baffling techniques are routinely turned to wherever possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
It's not a very well hidden dirty secret that, contrary to the protestations to otherwise, scientists often form a thesis in their minds and "work" the data to prove it. Anybody who has operated in the academia knows this.
It's either "academia" or "the academy". And as above, you are merely pontificating here in an expectation that others will take you seriously. Suffice it to say that not all others are impressed by what is nothing more than some hot air say-so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
That's rather funny. I remember having a dispute with you on this forum about a certain "urban planner" whose work you seem to embrace so heartily and readily without this "actual evidence."
In that case as well, I did not embrace Richard Florida, but rather defended him and his theories against misguided and very poorly founded attack and criticism. As for his "actual evidence", see his thousands of pages of published work, not a word-limited op-ed piece about the successes of the NoVa area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
Well, if the woman in question is indeed a lady, she would appreciate a gentlemanly gesture.
Slap in the face of milions of women noted. In the same book as having dismissed women so thoroughly as not to have bothered inquiring into their wishes in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
If you have any understanding of the state of scientific ethics today, you would not say so.
Thank you for your again baseless assurances, but it is actually very difficult today to be a scientist without an understanding of the state of scientific ethics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
The fact that the "scientific community" as such raises nary an objection to the like of Peter Singer and his views says quite a lot about that particular subject.
As so few of his many and mainly knee-jerk critics do, I would doubt that you have any detailed understanding of Peter Singer's views. Can you flesh out actual and particular complaints or are you merely off here on another propaganda-based book-burning crusade?
 
Old 09-13-2011, 02:53 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,868 posts, read 12,529,033 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
There is/was nothing wrong about eugenics. It is merely remembered in a dark light for a gross and distorted misapplication of it by the Nazi regime. The Human Genome Project and all genetic research and counseling .

There were "gross and distorted misapplications", if thats what you call them, right here in the USA.

Compulsory sterilization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Buck v. Bell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Eugenics in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

which brings us back on topic. ILD and I both attended Stuyvesant HS. At the time I attended it, probably over half of the students were from ethnic groups discouraged from immigrating by the partially eugenics inspired immigration restrictions of the 1920s. Ironic, eh?

I would say that the HGP has many applications, many of which have nothing to do with improvements to the genes passed in society. Genetic counseling is closer, but as that is based on voluntary decisions, and is usually done for a few clear genetic diseases, NOT for social traits whose heritability is, at most, complex, and in many instances is dubious, its hardly surprising that folks in contemporary genetics counseling want to distance themselves from the VAST mistakes and abuses of the early 20th c eugenics movement. I mean we make plutonium from uranium, eh, but the nuclear physicsts who do that dont want to be associated with alchemy.
 
Old 09-13-2011, 03:32 PM
 
1,403 posts, read 2,144,718 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
Duty and responsibility - DD was able to find and express her sense of social responsibility and idealism at TJ. There are kids who are already "grade grubbing careerists" there, but there was, I thought, a fair amount of idealism and social virtue.
To be precise, duty and responsibility are not the same as "social" responsibility and idealism... or for that matter, virtue is akin to to "social" virtue about as much as justice is to "social" justice.
Quote:
Respect for elders - It was always a joy to spend time on the campus. TJ kids just seemed to enjoy naturally talking to visiting adults - maybe not so much virtue and respect, but just that highly gifted kids often have related better to adults than age peers since early childhood. Anyway I found TJ kids generally to be polite, if not unfailing so.
"Relating well" or being precocious is not the same thing as respect.
Quote:
genuine camaraderie with your mates - TJ I think really shone on this. DD reports none of the cliques or interclass rivalries she'd heard about at FCPS base schools (third hand info wrt the base schools, take it for what you will) TJ kids SUPPORT each other, mostly. Kids on teams, band, etc get even MORE training in this.
I am glad your daughter reported that TJ has no cliques unlike other public schools (or any other school known to man), but alleged absence of cliques is not what I meant by camaraderie. Do TJ students learn what it means to put their lives into each other's hand? Do they learn that when one of your bunk mates fails, your also suffer the consequences and must therefore always strive to help your mates not fail? Do they share hardship and danger and form that bond only shared blood and sweat can form?
Quote:
gentlemanliness (esp. toward women) - as the father of a daughter, our impression was the TJ boys were generally good on this as well. Certainly better than the horror stories we hear about certain colleges, for example.
I don't know what to say except no young man I interviewed from TJ on behalf of my almae matres ever stood when my wife entered my office where the interview took place. Perhaps I am just more old-fashioned than you or your daughter.

My purpose in all this is not to knock TJ students. On the whole, my impression of them has been almost exactly my impression of Stuyvesant students (my peers and subsequently others I interviewed) -- very bright, highly ambitious, driven, hardworking and mostly concerned with college admissions and future career prospects. Other than that, they were not all that different from products of other high quality public schools. Of course, I have never been to TJ and have no direct experience with it, so perhaps I don't know what they are "really like" in their own environment.

What depressed me was that of all the students I interviewed, from TJ or otherwise, only ONE gave a coherent answer when I asked "What can you tell me about virtue?" Most had that deer-caught-in-a-headlight look and stared at me blankly for a couple of moments... then launched into inane or glib statements. Some tried an insincere compliment ("That's a great question!") and stalled to come up with something impressive to say (and failed).

There was this one young woman who, at the time was attending a Great Books-based Christian school, gave me an exceptionally erudite rendition of Aristotle's discourse on virtue.

But here was the really jaw-dropping thing. I was impressed, but thought perhaps she was merely very good at parroting what she read. So I said pointedly, "Yes, I understand what Aristotle said, but what do YOU think virtue means?" She said to me, without an iota of hesitation, "Mr. X, I think to really understand virtue, you need principle, practice and judgment. I think I understand the principle part, but I am not old enough to have had enough practice and I am certainly too young to have experience to have good judgment. Those are the things I hope to acquire through more education and life."

*I* was stunned. Obviously I recommended her with the highest compliments and she was accepted by my almae matres with flying colors.

I just wish that more high school students had this kind poise, maturity and humility on top of good command of knowledge. It would certainly be heart-warming to see that from the products of the "best" public school in this area.

By the way, I meant to ask you, brooklynborndad, did you find that your own experience at Stuyvesant and your daughter's at TJ were significantly different and, if so, in what ways?

Last edited by IndiaLimaDelta; 09-13-2011 at 03:56 PM..
 
Old 09-13-2011, 03:53 PM
 
1,403 posts, read 2,144,718 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
Perhaps because he is neither a scientist nor a policy maker. I think most scientists, even the ones most concerend with ethics, dont pay much attention to the debates among professional philosophers. They are simply too busy doing science.
Sadly no. Quite a few scientists, biologists in particular, support Singer.

Far from being "too busy doing science," enough scientists seem to find the time to engage in political affairs or social activism of all sorts.
Quote:
BTW, at TJ every summer they read the "one book" a book selected for the whole school to read. One summer it was Night, by Elie Wiesel. Another summer it was Cradle to Cradle, a book about sustainable product design. I think whoever was picking those books, was quite concerned about ethics and science.
Sorry, but one book a summer or one ethics course does not virtue make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
And of course, I proposed no justification of eugenics, but merely commented on its non-erroneousness as evidenced by its important representations under a different name today.
In other words, eugenics is fine in your view. Non-erroneousness... Is that even a word?
Quote:
If you would deny materialism meanwhile, please offer at least one example of evidence to suppose that any non-material (i.e., supernatural) realm is in actual existence. Poesy and whimsy of course do not count.
Tell me something. How do you account for consciousness?
Quote:
It's either "academia" or "the academy".
Thanks for the correction. I shall endeavor to be perfect in the future.
Quote:
Slap in the face of milions of women noted. In the same book as having dismissed women so thoroughly as not to have bothered inquiring into their wishes in the first place.
Wow. I didn't know you spoke for "millions of women" and their psyche. What heavy burdens you must carry.

In my view, a lady is a woman of grace. Whether she prefers it or not, when a person with grace encounters politeness and consideration, she responds likewise rather than with vehemence.
Quote:
Thank you for your again baseless assurances, but it is actually very difficult today to be a scientist without an understanding of the state of scientific ethics.
I wish. What is your experience with academia? Where did you work on your Ph.D.?
Quote:
As so few of his many and mainly knee-jerk critics do, I would doubt that you have any detailed understanding of Peter Singer's views. Can you flesh out actual and particular complaints or are you merely off here on another propaganda-based book-burning crusade?
Heavy Petting, by Peter Singer
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
Excellent point and one I meant to bring up. You pre-empted me!
 
Old 09-13-2011, 10:52 PM
 
1,403 posts, read 2,144,718 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Can you flesh out actual and particular complaints or are you merely off here on another propaganda-based book-burning crusade?
"Book-burning crusade"? Really? Are you that steeped with fanaticism that anyone who disagrees with your weltanschauung is some sort of a Nazi-like book-burner to you? (Wait, don't answer that -- you did write that eugenics had "non-erroneousness"; perhaps you wish that alleged "book-burners" were euthanized as degenerate children.)

This is particularly ironic since I happen to be a bibliophile and have managed to amass a modest collection of several thousand books, some of them quite rare like the very first edition of Edward Creasy's Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World (which I purchased at a used book shop with book collecting prize money while in college) as well as relatively early editions of objectionable tracts such as Das Kapital and Mein Kampf and more exalted ones like the Duay-Rheims Bible and Yeats.

"Brooklynborndad" might get a kick out of this (or not), but I even have a book from the Stuyvesant HS library that I forgot to return years ago! I promise I WILL return it. I shudder at what the late charge will be.

In any case, no, far from "book burning," I would prefer to publicize Singer as widely as possible. A wider readership will certainly assure a greater outrage... which is the same reason why I never complain about objectionable posts here. Authors of the same convict themselves with their own words in the court of public opinion.
 
Old 09-14-2011, 09:00 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,868 posts, read 12,529,033 times
Reputation: 2604
Pardon the formatting

"
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
Duty and responsibility - DD was able to find and express her sense of social responsibility and idealism at TJ. There are kids who are already "grade grubbing careerists" there, but there was, I thought, a fair amount of idealism and social virtue.

To be precise, duty and responsibility are not the same as "social" responsibility and idealism... or for that matter, virtue is akin to to "social" virtue about as much as justice is to "social" justice."


Social justice and social virtue, in addition to treating other INVIDIDUALS with integrity and compassion, were exactly the values we have tried to
instill in our DD. They are of course not identical to what a military school would teach I suppose.

"Quote:
Respect for elders - It was always a joy to spend time on the campus. TJ kids just seemed to enjoy naturally talking to visiting adults - maybe not so much virtue and respect, but just that highly gifted kids often have related better to adults than age peers since early childhood. Anyway I found TJ kids generally to be polite, if not unfailing so.
"Relating well" or being precocious is not the same thing as respect."

Yes, which is why i added that they were ALSO generally polite.

"Quote:
genuine camaraderie with your mates - TJ I think really shone on this. DD reports none of the cliques or interclass rivalries she'd heard about at FCPS base schools (third hand info wrt the base schools, take it for what you will) TJ kids SUPPORT each other, mostly. Kids on teams, band, etc get even MORE training in this.
I am glad your daughter reported that TJ has no cliques unlike other public schools (or any other school known to man), but alleged absence of cliques is not what I meant by camaraderie. Do TJ students learn what it means to put their lives into each other's hand? Do they learn that when one of your bunk mates fails, your also suffer the consequences and must therefore always strive to help your mates not fail? Do they share hardship and danger and form that bond only shared blood and sweat can form? "

They didnt HAVE bunkmates. Its not a boarding school. They DID share hardship, though not danger (unless the consequence of stress and depression can be a danger, which I guess they CAN be), I saw them being very supportive of each other through hardship.

"Quote:
gentlemanliness (esp. toward women) - as the father of a daughter, our impression was the TJ boys were generally good on this as well. Certainly better than the horror stories we hear about certain colleges, for example.
I don't know what to say except no young man I interviewed from TJ on behalf of my almae matres ever stood when my wife entered my office where the interview took place. Perhaps I am just more old-fashioned than you or your daughter."


Yes, that kind of behavior toward women would be in direct conflict with our values. My DW took the hardship lined path of leaving ultra orthodox Judaism in part because she wanted equality. We do NOT want our DD to lose that. Thats an important value to us.


"What depressed me was that of all the students I interviewed, from TJ or otherwise, only ONE gave a coherent answer when I asked "What can you tell me about virtue?"

Had you asked them not about virtue, but about utility (and not, not all utilitarians agree with Singer), goodness, right action, or even the categorical imperative, etc, etc you might have gotten a longer answer. Not all deep rigorous ethical traditions are based on Aristotle or the concept, much less the terminology of "virtue" Obviously if learning the aristotlean approach is important to you, TJ, with one or two phil courses, and none AFAIK that focus in on the approach you prefer, would not work for you.


"By the way, I meant to ask you, brooklynborndad, did you find that your own experience at Stuyvesant and your daughter's at TJ were significantly different and, if so, in what ways?"


From all I understand Stuy is not the same anymore. It was much mellower then, at a time when getting in to Stuy, and in to Ivy league colleges, was much easier. Also Stuy in my time 40% Jewish. The demographic changes at Stuy have, IIUC, changed the social ethics of the school (away from the kinds social justice ethics I like and you apparently do not) TJ was both different from old Stuy in that way, and of course it has a generally more affluent student body, which also makes a difference.
 
Old 09-14-2011, 09:04 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,868 posts, read 12,529,033 times
Reputation: 2604
"Sadly no. Quite a few scientists, biologists in particular, support Singer.

Far from being "too busy doing science," enough scientists seem to find the time to engage in political affairs or social activism of all sorts"

taking time to support, say, the endangered species act, is far from getting involved in technical debates among ethicists.

I am not saying NO biologists support Singer, but I dont see the failure of most to take issue with him says anything one way or the other. Its like asking how many corporate lawyers took issue with torture. Some may have supported it, but you cant argue guilt from silence, except perhaps in much more egregious cases.
 
Old 09-14-2011, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Maine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
I don't know what to say except no young man I interviewed from TJ on behalf of my almae matres ever stood when my wife entered my office where the interview took place. Perhaps I am just more old-fashioned than you or your daughter.
IndiaLimaDelta, I do enjoy reading your perspectives, but this part puzzles me. Why would your wife enter your office for each interview with the male TJ students? Was this deliberate--to test them? Or was she assisting with the interview process in an official way? Did she also enter the office for each female student, or students from other schools?

True gentlemanly behavior toward women is worth teaching and encouraging, but usually it is the family that teaches manners (or neglects, as many can attest). It's tricky for public schools to allow for behavior differences between males and females these days, so I find it odd to blame one school for something like males not standing for your wife (whose appearance may have been a complete surprise to the students). Standing when a woman enters a room is one of those things that, while charming, has not been passed down to younger generations.

Do other parents find that male students are usually more polite than females these days? With many young females, they seem to think that equality of the sexes means that they should be allowed to act rudely/disrespectfully to others at school and not suffer any consequences.
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