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Old 07-24-2012, 08:50 PM
 
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I would so much rather see this kind of time and energy put toward ending the graduation rate gap. Anyone who does well enough to even apply at TJ is going to do fine in life. I know of a child who was recruited by FCPS to do three summers of the Quest program to be groomed for TJ because of race, but still didn't get in. With an 8,000 square foot house and a Cadillac convertible, the parents could have afforded whatever extra tutoring the child needed. (And yes, I think that if you need to be tutored to get into TJ, you don't belong there, but that's another issue.) How much better that money would have been spent on bringing up the reading proficiency of some at-risk kids and keeping them from dropping out.
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Old 07-25-2012, 06:41 AM
 
Location: New-Dentist Colony
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ILD, I disagree that the differences in test scores are based on inherent intellectual differences. I think they reflect culture and exposure. I did well on the verbal SAT. Why? Because I was raised with lots of books lying around and grew up hearing good grammar spoken. That's pretty much it. The SAT doesn't reflect your capacity to learn but, rather, what you have learned. I'm no expert on IQ tests and to my knowledge have never taken one, but I would suspect they're similar.

Some cultures emphasize learning and exposing oneself to new cultures and new ideas, and others are more insular. I think these differences account for the testing disparities. E.g., I've never been to a regatta (to allude to an infamous and oft-cited example of cultural bias in standardized testing), but as a high school student, I knew what one was, because I was encouraged to read about things foreign to my decidedly non-pelagic Texas upbringing. (Also, there's a Police album called Regatta de Blanc.)

Sting: Six degrees of separation from our third president! (Actually, those two chiseled, philandering musicians have a lot in common.)

And on that note, I suggest we get this thread back on the topic at hand: TJ (the school, not the man).
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Old 07-25-2012, 07:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Carlingtonian View Post
And on that note, I suggest we get this thread back on the topic at hand: TJ (the school, not the man).
Indeed.
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Old 07-25-2012, 08:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
A "Jew race"? What is this, the 19th Century? The Jewish people are a distinct ethnic group. No, they do not form a "race" as defined by the US Census Bureau, but neither do "Hispanics" who are also an ethnic group, not a race.
The difference is called starvation -- and I don't mean "we don't get good breakfast" American variety -- I mean kids desperately trying to subsist on grass and tree while trying to avoid getting shot by political commissars variety. That kind of starvation has a nasty habit of drastically reducing even the brightest children into stunted, extremely maladjusted human beings no matter what their gene pool.

I suggest reading this link: The East Asian Exception to Socio-Economic IQ Influences | The American Conservative


See above. Genes do play a significant, measurable role in a child's intelligence and his subsequent academic performance. What we have here is a term popularized by Jared Diamond -- an autocatalytic effect of high intelligence people marrying each other, earning high income, devoting time and resources on their already likely-to-be high intelligence offspring whereby multiple factors mutually reinforce each other.
No one -- certainly not I -- suggested that a gifted child will do better in life "just because," but one must acknowledge that children with high intelligence born to high intelligence parents have an advantage. Furthermore, an aggregate of such people are more likely to produce academic super stars (or TJ graduates) than those who are not.

Ever notice how kids with two athletic parents seem to be pretty athletic themselves? There is a reason that the Chinese government frequently "mines" children of athlete parents for their national sports programs. Yao Ming was one such product. His parents were 6'7" and 6'3" and both pro basketball players.
That's odd. I lived in Asia for some years and sports stars sure seemed to be mobbed by screaming women, just like everywhere else.
It's wonderful that you had an egalitarian educational environment, but children of elites in most Asian countries often go to highly inaccessible private schools. Especially popular are international schools where the children of local elites get to mingle with those of foreign diplomats and investment bankers.

While I agree that most Asian cultures highly value education, I think you go too far in portraying some sort of an egalitarian educational paradise.

By the way, it's funny you should mention Goerge Bush. George W. Bush once said that the difference between his father and him was that his father went to Greenwich Country Day school in CT while he went to San Jacinto Junior High in Midland, TX (of course, they both went to Andover and Yale, but still early life experiences do count). I'm pretty sure San Jacinto JH had some pretty low income folks, maybe even some in poverty.
I guess i did not get my point across... Average IQ by countries are in fact directly related to ethnicity and social environment... Hence south and noth korea's situation. TRUE genius (IQ > 160) does not go lower, or at least not below the true genius mark whatever that might be, at a young age because of socio economical reasons... True giftedness is NOT aquired... People are born with it... Now what people decide to do with it is their call. Now if all those kids could be recognized objectively then this whole problem would be solved. There is no noticeable difference between someone with an IQ of 110 or 130... Other aspects of the individual have a larger influence in the person's outcome such as personality, etc. If kids with IQ < i would say 140 are being picked for an accelerated curriulum... All you are doing is overstressing a child that could learn much more in the long run by aquiring a love for learning rather than hate it because is too much work... And if someone is making the call of who gets in those programs and part of the criteria is what that person sees in the child... We are not chosing true giftedness and situations like this happen... My second pair of cents :P
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Old 07-25-2012, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Fairfax County
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Originally Posted by chessmom View Post
Now if all those kids could be recognized objectively then this whole problem would be solved. There is no noticeable difference between someone with an IQ of 110 or 130... Other aspects of the individual have a larger influence in the person's outcome such as personality, etc.
Thankfully TJ admissions are not based on simply an IQ test.
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Old 07-25-2012, 12:55 PM
 
53 posts, read 55,601 times
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Originally Posted by OrangeFish View Post
Thankfully TJ admissions are not based on simply an IQ test.
Well yes... At high school age IQ is not as important as knowledge, but if you prepare high IQ children when they are young... The knowledge they have by high school is amazing...
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Old 07-25-2012, 02:32 PM
 
1,403 posts, read 1,848,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlingtonian View Post
ILD, I disagree that the differences in test scores are based on inherent intellectual differences. I think they reflect culture and exposure.
I never wrote that "the differences in test scores are based on inherent intellectual differences." As I wrote in my very first post here, the most reliable predictor of a child's academic performance is parental involvement (and this is not a resource that can be increased by government fiat or by taking from haves and giving to have-nots). That does not mean, however, that genes have no input in the outcome particularly when we discuss population groups in the aggregate as have in this thread. Given the combination of genetic and cultural advantages Asian population seems to have on average, it may be that Asians will always be "over-represented" in schools like TJ, which means some other ethnic group, inevitably, will be "under-represented."

The point of all this in respect to TJ admissions is this: there are factors, both inborn and environmental, that are beyond the reach of government, economic and/or social policy. The only reliable way of ensuring that a certain number of black and Hispanic students are admitted to TJ would be to institute of a quota, which I think helps neither TJ nor the said students.

Furthermore, so far the evidence seems to indicate that resources put into providing additional monetary resources to potential black and Hispanic candidates at an earlier age are not producing the intended outcome in TJ admissions, most likely because, contrary to what is assumed and claimed by the likes of NAACP, material imbalance is not what is causing the imbalance in admissions. In other words, these public resources have been simplly wasted.

For that reason alone, I agree with an earlier poster who advocated Stuyvesant HS-style race-blind admission based on test scores for TJ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessmom View Post
I guess i did not get my point across... Average IQ by countries are in fact directly related to ethnicity and social environment... Hence south and noth korea's situation.
As I replied earlier, North Korean children are severely stunted due to extreme malnutrition. This is an extreme situation that has no bearing on what we are discussing here.

If you look at the study I cited, you will see that South Korean IQ has stayed the same (slightly above average) even though it went from a moderately poor country to a moderately rich country in 25 years or so. Likewise, Japan's per capita income increased 10-fold in 50 years and yet its average IQ stayed the same slightly above average number during that time. This falsifies the theory that affluence increases IQ score so far as East Asians are concerned. Likewise, East Asian children who are adopted by non-East Asian parents in Europe and North America tend to exhibit East Asian-level IQ (above average, rather than the IQ averages of the adoptive countries or adoptive parents' ethnicity), again falsifying the theories of IQ and environmental causation where East Asians are concerned.

You would note, by the way, your speculation is consistent with all other ethnic groups/nationalities, that is, their IQ averages are consistent with their respective levels of economic development (which might explain, for example, why American Jews have high average IQs while Israel's average IQ was slightly below average when its economy was less developed).

Now, what does this have to do with TJ admissions? It's an accepted fact that East Asians have higher-than-average quantitative-spatial IQ. Hence in the aggregate they are more likely to be successful in careers that take advantage of such trait. Evidence also bears that out. Compounded with reinforcing cultural traits, it means that Asian students are far more likely to come from a gene pool with high spatial IQ with parents who are involved in technological-scientific professions who also happen to stress learning and education. Given these circumstances, it may be impossible to reduce the percentage of Asian admissions to TJ to be consistent with their population percentage without draconian measures that make a mockery of our American meritocracy. It therefore follows that it would be impossible to raise non-East Asian admissions percentage to be consistent strictly with the makeup of the population at large.

In other words, NAACP ("not enough blacks and Hispanics!") and Lloyd Cohen ("not enough whites!") are wasting their time as well as ours... and, if they were ever successful, the public purse.

However, there is hope for the rest of us yet. Asians in America are the most assimilated group and the most likely to intermarry with others. Soon, with enough intermarriages, they are likely to be as ordinary as we are OR the rest of the ethnic groups might get enough gene flow to compete on an equal footing.
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Old 07-25-2012, 09:21 PM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
14,661 posts, read 10,558,539 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chessmom View Post
There is no noticeable difference between someone with an IQ of 110 or 130.
I am getting ready to be very politically incorrect and I'll probably be droned out of my profession for contradicting the party line. As a teacher, let me assure you there is a difference. The further a child gets away from 100 the more noticeable it is and 20 points is a big deal when it comes to IQ.
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Old 07-26-2012, 06:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
I never wrote that "the differences in test scores are based on inherent intellectual differences." As I wrote in my very first post here, the most reliable predictor of a child's academic performance is parental involvement (and this is not a resource that can be increased by government fiat or by taking from haves and giving to have-nots).
Of course not. But that does not mean that better methods of recognizing gifted youth should not be in place. That would definitely bring equilibrium to the statistics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
That does not mean, however, that genes have no input in the outcome particularly when we discuss population groups in the aggregate as have in this thread. Given the combination of genetic and cultural advantages Asian population seems to have on average, it may be that Asians will always be "over-represented" in schools like TJ, which means some other ethnic group, inevitably, will be "under-represented."
Genes have no input. Cultural differences on the other hand do, but only to IQs less than say 150 or 160...

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
The point of all this in respect to TJ admissions is this: there are factors, both inborn and environmental, that are beyond the reach of government, economic and/or social policy. The only reliable way of ensuring that a certain number of black and Hispanic students are admitted to TJ would be to institute of a quota, which I think helps neither TJ nor the said students.
A quota would only make TJ less competitive with other schools. The US does not have many high schools (compared to other countries) where kids learn this much to afford to lose them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
Furthermore, so far the evidence seems to indicate that resources put into providing additional monetary resources to potential black and Hispanic candidates at an earlier age are not producing the intended outcome in TJ admissions, most likely because, contrary to what is assumed and claimed by the likes of NAACP, material imbalance is not what is causing the imbalance in admissions. In other words, these public resources have been simplly wasted.
No additional resources are needed. If you see the statistics, black and hispanic minorities were not only under represented in admissions... also in number of applicants... that means that they did not feel ready to apply... and why is that?... because they are probably not... and the only way to make them ready is to be objective when they are very young, recognize their talent and give them the same opportunity to be in an advanced program at a young age... if you put money into trying to make a 6th grader so he can improve... is too late... and it is a waste of money... you change the rules of the game when they are 6 yrs old... wait 8 years and you'll see the difference... very little money is needed to do that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
For that reason alone, I agree with an earlier poster who advocated Stuyvesant HS-style race-blind admission based on test scores for TJ.
Not a bad idea but until things are fixed at a younger age you'll see the same results over and over again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
As I replied earlier, North Korean children are severely stunted due to extreme malnutrition. This is an extreme situation that has no bearing on what we are discussing here.
I gave you an extreme example so you could see a big gap... but there are others... Chile and Argentina in South America, Switzerland and Austria in Europe, Mexico in "Central" America... all those countries are in the same geographical location with the same "ethnicity" and "genes" as those around them and there are large gaps... which makes me conclude that IQs are primary guided by factors OTHER that genetics... and also I would hate to think that someone is born to fail just because of his/hers genes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
If you look at the study I cited, you will see that South Korean IQ has stayed the same (slightly above average) even though it went from a moderately poor country to a moderately rich country in 25 years or so. Likewise, Japan's per capita income increased 10-fold in 50 years and yet its average IQ stayed the same slightly above average number during that time. This falsifies the theory that affluence increases IQ score so far as East Asians are concerned. Likewise, East Asian children who are adopted by non-East Asian parents in Europe and North America tend to exhibit East Asian-level IQ (above average, rather than the IQ averages of the adoptive countries or adoptive parents' ethnicity), again falsifying the theories of IQ and environmental causation where East Asians are concerned.
Again... the older someone gets, the more socio economical factors affect someone's outcome... but children are not like that... that's why if you make it fair for everyone when they are children then TJ admissions will be at equilibrium...

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
You would note, by the way, your speculation is consistent with all other ethnic groups/nationalities, that is, their IQ averages are consistent with their respective levels of economic development (which might explain, for example, why American Jews have high average IQs while Israel's average IQ was slightly below average when its economy was less developed).
Are you implying that East Asians are a superior race? XD

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
Now, what does this have to do with TJ admissions? It's an accepted fact that East Asians have higher-than-average quantitative-spatial IQ. Hence in the aggregate they are more likely to be successful in careers that take advantage of such trait. Evidence also bears that out. Compounded with reinforcing cultural traits, it means that Asian students are far more likely to come from a gene pool with high spatial IQ with parents who are involved in technological-scientific professions who also happen to stress learning and education. Given these circumstances, it may be impossible to reduce the percentage of Asian admissions to TJ to be consistent with their population percentage without draconian measures that make a mockery of our American meritocracy. It therefore follows that it would be impossible to raise non-East Asian admissions percentage to be consistent strictly with the makeup of the population at large.
... wow... accepted fact... I did my bachelors and masters in Engineering at two different (very good) universities and in both of them I saw the same thing... all ethnic groups were as prepared as the other and they were well represented... even in MIT the % of minorities that apply are almost the same as the ones accepted (for undergrad of course... international students mess up graduate admissons' statistics)... are FCPS kids different than the rest of the country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
In other words, NAACP ("not enough blacks and Hispanics!") and Lloyd Cohen ("not enough whites!") are wasting their time as well as ours... and, if they were ever successful, the public purse.
Although I agree with you (only because they are probably not taking the right approach), I do think there is a solution, and is a simple one...

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
However, there is hope for the rest of us yet. Asians in America are the most assimilated group and the most likely to intermarry with others. Soon, with enough intermarriages, they are likely to be as ordinary as we are OR the rest of the ethnic groups might get enough gene flow to compete on an equal footing.
I think there is hope because at some point decisions are going to be made correctly... by both parents and government... cents five and six
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Old 07-26-2012, 06:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
I am getting ready to be very politically incorrect and I'll probably be droned out of my profession for contradicting the party line. As a teacher, let me assure you there is a difference. The further a child gets away from 100 the more noticeable it is and 20 points is a big deal when it comes to IQ.
I meant to say there is no real difference between adults of IQs of 100 and 130... kids... tremendous differences... the problem is there are serious problems identifying these kids... but if that is solved... I think everyone would be happy... especially tax paying minorities that are probably starting to wonder... but I agree with you... in children there is a difference and that's why we need to learn how to accurately identify them...
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