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Old 11-14-2012, 08:38 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,776 posts, read 10,683,449 times
Reputation: 2503

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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
Who's talking about relationships? We are talking about socio-legal recognition, not relationships. Are homosexuals prevented from loving their partners or living with each other in today's fascist America?
They have been prevented from going to a partners bedside at a hospital, when the partner's legal next of kin forbid it.

Socio-legal recognition has human implications, which is why marriage is far from archaic, and denying it to gays (I know, I know, they have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex -oy!) is a denial of an important right.

 
Old 11-14-2012, 08:41 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,776 posts, read 10,683,449 times
Reputation: 2503
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
Then don't be in one. Don't try to subvert it for the rest of us.
Will your marriage be subverted if your gay neighbors are civilly marry?

By the way, just to note, Va does not allow civil unions either, and even has a constitutional provision explicitly forbidding the granting of civil union like rights to same sex couples. Our law goes BEYOND protecting the 'definition of marriage'

Perhaps AG Cuccinelli will come out for civil unions in lieu of same sex marriages. I look forward.
 
Old 11-14-2012, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Portland, OR
8,803 posts, read 7,564,772 times
Reputation: 4501
Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonsengineer View Post
Special election, and likely do to the lack of voter turnout from democrats(something that plagues our state) it will switch to republican control. I shudder to think that someone like Eric Cantor might be granted with a spot in the Senate.

Cuccinelli, if he runs, would lose sooooooo bad, the guy is a liability and has said some ridiculous things about Northern Virginia. He was tea party before there was one. Either way, I am annoyed when people think governor bobby is doing a good job in the state. He is selling our state down the drain to big oil and big coal HOW is that good? He hasnt brought a single job to our area, in fact his policies have been driving away biotech firms that deem Virginia to unstable for genomics and stem cell research. He wants to build a 500 million dollar Coal road for southern virginia using the funds we send him every year, but refuses to give more than 150 million for sustainable transportation solutions to our states tech corridor (Dulles) leaving us to rely on an inefficient funding system using the toll road for bond backing and thereby running up the cost of the project.

Please tell me why people are enamored with governor ultra-sound select me as your Vice President McDonnell?

I'm sure the (R) gets in your way of a fair assessment.
 
Old 11-14-2012, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
14,131 posts, read 27,034,287 times
Reputation: 6824
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
Will your marriage be subverted if your gay neighbors are civilly marry?

By the way, just to note, Va does not allow civil unions either, and even has a constitutional provision explicitly forbidding the granting of civil union like rights to same sex couples. Our law goes BEYOND protecting the 'definition of marriage'

Perhaps AG Cuccinelli will come out for civil unions in lieu of same sex marriages. I look forward.
Isn't cohabitation still illegal here? We've got a long way to go.
 
Old 11-14-2012, 01:17 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,776 posts, read 10,683,449 times
Reputation: 2503
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
Yeah, because no one has leftist friends who mindlessly and annoyingly parrot MSNBC, DailyKos and increasingly Jon Stewart.)
I have lots of annoying leftist friends. but they all quote DIFFERENT annoying things - rarely MSNBC, often Jon Stewart, occasionally some blog or other - but the memes simply don't echo the same way as they do on the right. The different leftist "spheres" overlap, debate each other, and often include right wing POVs (can't open the WaPo or NYT editorial pages without seeing a more or less right wing pundit)
The right wing thing, while not PERFECTLY coordinated (esp some of the lesser blogs) is much more lockstep, much more "epistemic closure"


Quote:
Well, obviously and seriously you and I have different "scope" on the definition. I think people who want to nationalize a big chunk of the economy radical leftists, but YMMV.).
1. I dont think the folks in Salon who dislike BHO actually want to nationalize major chunks of the economy. Not on post war euro socialist scales - they wanted national health INSURANCE, not a national health service - Simon Johnson wanted TEMPORARY takeovers of big banks to be followed by quick privatization (like what the FDIC does with small banks) etc.

2. even if they were, the presence of a dominant private sector, a market economy, and the accomplishment of change by democratic and fully legal means, seperates western europe of the late 1940s from RADICALISM, which to me has overtones of hostility to bourgeois legalism.

Quote:
It's not just editorials. About 90% of MSM journalists vote Dem consistently.).
I judge them on what I see, not on how they vote.


Quote:
How they filter the news (what's worthy of coverage and what's not) matters.

I agree with Bernie Goldberg that most MSM journalists are not consciously being biased leftist cheerleaders but rather they happen to think that they are moderates and guide their coverage decisions accordingly.).
If anything they lean over backwards to give credence to the right. This was true to some extent on health care, has been more true on macro econ (though things have gotten better in the last two years, as Krugman keeps pounding away at the elite bias against Keynes) and has been true to an incredible degree on climate change - where it really is "many scientists say earth is round, some people disagree, more at 11)


Quote:
I don't have exact quote. I read an interview a LONG time ago in which Betty Ford winked winked about young people trying sex and drugs and going all radical feminist.).
I would have to see what winking meant, and how much twisting had to be done to turn it into advocating. I need the quote.
 
Old 11-14-2012, 01:24 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,776 posts, read 10,683,449 times
Reputation: 2503
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
Yeah, because "organized religion" is what caused dozens of millions of deaths by collectivizing farms in Ukraine, rounding up and slaughtering Jews and other social "inferiors" like homosexuals and Romanis in Europe and launching "The Great Leap Forward" in China. Yeah, it wasn't radical statism at all, it was all "organized religion."
.

I dont attack organized religion for what Jews suffered in europe during the middle ages - I blame specifcially medieval catholicism, and medievel bigotry. I do not blame "statism" for the Shoah - I blame nazism.

Social democrats, and anti-fascist christian democrats, no more deserve to be associated with the shoah, then do modern ecumenical catholics, or hindus, or other followers of organized religion deserve to be associated with religously imposed horrors of times past.

but I guess i am a liberal (and here progressives and so called classical liberals have something in common) elitist, who beleives in fine distinctions.
 
Old 11-14-2012, 11:10 PM
 
1,403 posts, read 1,849,126 times
Reputation: 451
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVA1990 View Post
Exit polling showed that 69% of Virginians described themselves as either moderate or liberal.
Isn't that rather like saying that the country is still majority "moderate or conservative"? It all hinges on where "moderates" go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dissenter View Post
First, I fail to see how either one of those arrangements can be lumped in with gay marriage.

Plural marriages. No.

Incest marriages. Incest is against the law so no.
First of all, at least you have the honesty to answer the uncomfortable question. For that I salute you.

They can be "lumped" with homosexual marriage, because the rationale is the same. "Equal rights" for consenting adults. That people who love each other romantically, whatever their situations, should be recognized by society as being in "marriage." It's a legitimate philosophical and practical question, which supporters of homosexual marriage rarely, if ever, address.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
despite the fact that the bible allows for them, I accept the fact that the definition of marriage evolves.
My religion forbids divorce and a host of other restrictions, but I don't seek to legislate those into the law, so what? It's not about my or your religion. It's about the basic definition of marriage as has existed for millenia. If anything, plural marriage has a far more historical claim on legality than homosexual marriage, which has never existed before in human history.
Quote:
The old biblical plural marriage (which was still allowed by Sephardic rabbis till the 19th century, IIUC) is not compatible with our modern sense of what marriage is (and would be a pain administravely for the state to recognize - too many survivors, insurance beneficiaries, etc)
Says you. What an arbitrary line. What's the justification for homosexual marriage then? Is it not that consenting, romantic partners should be able to marry, period?
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
They have been prevented from going to a partners bedside at a hospital, when the partner's legal next of kin forbid it.
A one page power of attorney could solve that, without the momumental change in the basic composition of human society. Seems like the energy should be spent on strengthening the power of attorney -- hey, I am all for people being allowed to choose who can and cannot visit them at hospital -- rather than re-engineering humanity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
Will your marriage be subverted if your gay neighbors are civilly marry?

By the way, just to note, Va does not allow civil unions either, and even has a constitutional provision explicitly forbidding the granting of civil union like rights to same sex couples. Our law goes BEYOND protecting the 'definition of marriage'
Not my marriage, but marriage, period, would be subverted. Again, are you supportive of a society in which mothers can marry sons and so on? Where all consenting adults with romantic feelings can obtain social and legal sanction?

I oppose "civil unions," because that's just marriage by another name.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVA1990 View Post
Isn't cohabitation still illegal here? We've got a long way to go.
Is it? If so, that's silly, it should not be. Although I believe premarital cohabitation is wrong and harmful to the future marriage, I would never criminalize it. I am all for freedom of association. Live with five different men or women if that's what makes you happy. Don't ask society to call that "marriage."
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
I have lots of annoying leftist friends. but they all quote DIFFERENT annoying things - rarely MSNBC, often Jon Stewart, occasionally some blog or other - but the memes simply don't echo the same way as they do on the right. The different leftist "spheres" overlap, debate each other, and often include right wing POVs (can't open the WaPo or NYT editorial pages without seeing a more or less right wing pundit)
The right wing thing, while not PERFECTLY coordinated (esp some of the lesser blogs) is much more lockstep, much more "epistemic closure"
Maybe. At best, you vastly overstate. There are plenty of fissures among neocons, paleocons, libertarians, theocons, etc. American Conservative is quite anti-interventionist and "old Right" and detest NRO folks and so on. You only find echo chambers if you are out to look for them.
Quote:
I judge them on what I see, not on how they vote.
The problem is, how you see things is entirely subjective to you. How elected officials vote leaves a far more objective set of data, on which to evaluate the said officials ideologies.
Quote:
has been true to an incredible degree on climate change - where it really is "many scientists say earth is round, some people disagree, more at 11)
That's a rather oft-repeated straw man. It's obvious to anyone who can read that climate changes, constantly, historically and so on. The questions are: are "climate change" (ex. "global warming") boosters playing a fair scientific games? How much of human activity is actually responsible for the changes? How much of human activity can combat such changes, whether man-made or otherwise and finally, should we implement such remedial activities in consideration of both efficacy and costs.
Quote:
I would have to see what winking meant, and how much twisting had to be done to turn it into advocating. I need the quote.
As I said, I read it in paper form a LONG time ago. Read the various profiles of Betty Ford available online. You are smart enough to read between the lines when you read things like she "mused" about drugs, sex, feminism and cost her husband votes with the public.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
I dont attack organized religion for what Jews suffered in europe during the middle ages - I blame specifcially medieval catholicism, and medievel bigotry.
The Chosen People were persecuted pretty much everywhere, from ancient Rome to Nazi Germany.

And contrary to the Roman Catholic Church-bashing that some Jewish groups engage in, there were also times when the Church protected Jews against forces of persecution. For example, the Spanish Inquisition is often blamed on the Church, but in fact, the Spanish monarchy unleashed it to centralize control over the Iberian Peninsula and to cement its authority. Many who were ensnared in it, including Jews, appealed to the Church, which led the monarchy to outlaw -- on the pain of immediate death -- appeals to the Vatican.

And, of course, while Martin Luther was advocating the persecution of Jews, the universal Church protected them from the ravages of these national churches that were the tool of the princes (states).

I, of course, do not deny that there were Catholic anti-semites and Catholic persecutions of non-Catholics, including Jews throughout history, but the mindless bashing Catholicism takes is far in excess of the actual historical record. I know of no other Christian sect, for example, that specifically changed it liturgy to avoid "offending" the Jewish people.

I do wonder, though, human nature being what it was and is, how "medieval Judaism" would have treated minority sects had it been in charge of society or in a postion of power sufficiently, considering that there were historical instances where Jewish forces massacred Christians when the former held power over the latter.
Quote:
I do not blame "statism" for the Shoah - I blame nazism.
Nazism WAS a form of a militant, aggressive and, I might add, pagan statism, which not so coincidentally was also highly hostile to Catholicism and the Catholic Church (rather like another militant and atheistic statism -- communism) and in fact continued the Kulturkampf against the Church from earlier years. And of course, everyone remembers the romanticism of the Spanish Republican romance of Hemingway, but rarely the orgy of anti-Catholic violence.
Quote:
but I guess i am a liberal (and here progressives and so called classical liberals have something in common) elitist, who beleives in fine distinctions.
So, setting aside the Shoah for the moment, you agree that statism caused evil like the collecitivization of Ukraine and the Great Leap Forward that killed millions more people than "organized religion" ever did in the modern times, contrary to CAVA's assertion that organized religion is one of the great evils?
 
Old 11-15-2012, 05:24 AM
 
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
14,131 posts, read 27,034,287 times
Reputation: 6824
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
My religion forbids divorce and a host of other restrictions, but I don't seek to legislate those into the law, so what? It's not about my or your religion.
I was guessing you were Catholic. If so, it's not divorce that's forbidden but remarriage. The church just doesn't recognize divorce so if you get one it's a non-event to the church and it just considers you still married. I don't believe they consider it a sin to go through the legal process.

As to your assertion that organized religion (and I mean that in the sense of two or more like believers acting together) is less destructive than past dictators like Hitler, Stalin, or Mao, I'm speaking about now not then. I consider radical Islam and evangelical Christianity as present dangers. The fact that something was more destructive in the past doesn't diminish this.
 
Old 11-15-2012, 03:07 PM
 
7,966 posts, read 18,051,686 times
Reputation: 2588
While this discussion has remained fairly peaceful, it has also veered way off-topic.
So it is now time for a gentle close.
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