how fast over the speed limit is it proper to drive? (Fairfax: safer, public transportation)

[brooklynborndad]

Originally Posted by OrangeFish

The first vehicle slammed on the brakes, the second vehicle swerved over the double yellow line to avoid hitting the first, etc., and I ended up slowing way down and pulling into the curb lane. Thankfully there were no other vehicles anywhere, and thankfully no one was hurt, but jeez -- why would someone do that at all, never mind at dusk?

Shouldn't the second vehicle have been able to stop if they were keeping adequate distance for their speed?

[brooklynborndad]

Originally Posted by OrangeFish

I agree.

Yesterday I was driving on Hummer Road in Annandale (southbound towards 236) and a cyclist was in the middle of the road (not to the right side where the parking/curb lane is well marked)

was the parking lane clear? There are often parked cars in it there (and almost always on the northbound side, next to Yechon).

I can't speak for your nolights dude (who probably does not know safe cycling) but aside from little room on the right, some cyclist will take the lane there to get positioned for a left onto LRT or the LRT service lane.

I personally do not feel comfortable taking the lane there, so I will ride on the sidewalk on the east side of Hummer to get to the service lane. On the service lane I WILL take the lane, as even my slow speed is not that slow in the service lane context, and there really isn't enough room for cars to pass within the lane - and they can usually pass in the opposite lane pretty easily.

My main problem with those service lanes is that coming to a complete foot down stop (as required by law) at EACH stop sign makes it very difficult to bike efficiently or comfortably - yet I do not want to contribute to the cyclist=scofflaw meme.

[FC Merrifield]

Originally Posted by brooklynborndad

Where do you see this typically? And where in FFX county do you see pelletons on the road?

This is what I meant before - I don't typically see this happening. For the most part, cyclists will stay on the right for the reasons I mentioned. The times when I haven't been as fortunate were on Cedar Road in Vienna (I'm assuming because there's a trail near there) and some of the roads off Braddock in the northern Burke area.

I think your original point was that everyone bends the laws so we shouldn't act like cyclists are worse than anyone else. And I don't. I just want to see better flow of traffic regardless of the mode of transportation.

[cat1116]

Originally Posted by brooklynborndad

Just to clarify there are 'serious' cyclists who ride for transportation.

Would it be terribly unPC to say that the riders we are discussing are typically working class hispanic immigrants? It would be very good if there could be more outreach to that community on safe cycling. Also free or discounted distribution of lights and helmets.

Seen plenty of upper teen - mid 20's kids of various backgrounds in my area doing the exact same thing. You would think they had some kind of death wish. Riding their bikes, very early morning or very late evening time, with absolutely no lights, no reflectors, dark clothing all over (not a trace of reflective material). Too bad before they get a bike that there aren't free bike safety classes for them to attend and they have some freebies as an incentive.

Do the police not give out some kind of warning/citation when they see them anymore? If they do, maybe they enlist them into one of those classes.

As for how fast over the speed limit is it proper to drive... there's a saying that goes, "Nine you're fine, ten you're mine". As in 10 miles or more over the listed limit, expect to see red flashing lights in your rear view mirror. Well, it's probably discretionary in some jurisdictions. Lord knows, traveling in N.Va to the Charles Town, WV direction, there's been plenty of times when I was going 10 miles over just to keep up with the flow of traffic. I wasn't going to go that much over but swear some must have been going 80.

[brooklynborndad]

Originally Posted by FC Merrifield

I think your original point was that everyone bends the laws so we shouldn't act like cyclists are worse than anyone else. And I don't. I just want to see better flow of traffic regardless of the mode of transportation.

pretty much, though I didnt mean that everyone bends the law. There are cyclists who don't even do idaho stops, and quite a bunch who never do anything unlawful other than an Idaho stop in certain instances. And of course there are drivers who never drive above the speed limit. My point was that being a scofflaw is not more common for cyclists (or peds, BTW) than it is for drivers, and that the different kinds of law breaking are due to the actual features of each form of transport.

And my focus in this thread is wanting to see better safety more than better flow (not that I'm against better flow, but I am wary of improving flow at the expense of safety, of non-auto options, etc). I would prefer to see speed limits increased on limite access highways where they are so low that they encourage lawful people to break the law, and see them better enforced on suburban arterials. I'd like to see serious enforcement against cyclists who ride at night without lights, and who ride against traffic - and I'd also like to see consideration given to legalizing the Idaho stop. And I'd like to see laws for due care when opening a car door into traffic, and for due care when following a bike, and for three feet for passing cyclists (these last came very close to passing this past session, and might have but for committee conflicts in our or so functional legislature) - at least we got a no texting law, which I think all of us can appreciate.

[IndiaLimaDelta]

Originally Posted by brooklynborndad

So the almost universal consensus is that driving 5 - 10 MPH over is needed to keep up with traffic, it won't get you a ticket, its basically fine (except possibly in school zones), etc, etc

From which I deduce that the vast majority of drivers in this area are scofflaws.

While the conclusion may or may not be accurate, the use of the said "deduction" from a survey on an obscure forum on the internet is highly problematic, to say the least.

At least as much, if not more so, than cyclists. Like most scofflaw cyclists, they tend to violate the laws in ways which they feel will not endanger themselves.

I hope none of the people who has admitted to regularly driving over the limit is among those opposed to the encouragement of cycling on the grounds that many cyclists are scofflaws.

Ditto vis a vis pedestrians.

Typically, "polls" that start with an already defined agenda are not particularly good at capturing the objective reality. They are too clever by half, if you will.

Whether or not a majority of drivers speed has little bearing on the desirability of bicycles sharing the road with motor vehicles. I have family members who have biked across America several times and did the RAGBRAI thing over twenty times. I am very sympathetic to bicycle riders and look out for them on the road, but I think it's a bad idea for them to mix with cars on the road for a variety of reasons, including, in a region like this, traffic flow issues.

[brooklynborndad]

Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta

While the conclusion may or may not be accurate, the use of the said "deduction" from a survey on an obscure forum on the internet is highly problematic, to say the least.
Typically, "polls" that start with an already defined agenda are not particularly good at capturing the objective reality. They are too clever by half, if you will.

Whether or not a majority of drivers speed has little bearing on the desirability of bicycles sharing the road with motor vehicles. I have family members who have biked across America several times and did the RAGBRAI thing over twenty times. I am very sympathetic to bicycle riders and look out for them on the road, but I think it's a bad idea for them to mix with cars on the road for a variety of reasons, including, in a region like this, traffic flow issues.

What people have posted here strongly agrees with my own observations, and with what I recall seeing in a study someone posted (sorry I dont have the link - heres where you get to insert a snarky line about me not having a link handy)

That drivers speed does not directly have bearing on the desirability of bicycles sharing the road, but does have bearing on the arguments that they should not have to because bicyclists are scofflaws who run through stop signs without stopping, etc.

Its quite possible for cyclists to utlize the roads safely, and it happens every day. In most instances it can be done with limited impact on motor vehicle traffic - and can result in making traffic better, since more bike riders can mean fewer cars on the road - and much of that biking in mixed traffic is only to overcome a gap in the trail/lanes network. Also since most of us do not have bike trails by our houses, biking on roads is necessary to get anywhere by bike. Note well, biking on roads includes biking on back streets, not only on arterials. Note that Arlington, which is particularly bike friendly, has relatively uncongested streets considering its density.

While jurisdictions like Arlington and Alexandria have led the NoVa region in establishment of multiuse trails, bike lanes, etc - to not allow bikes in mixed traffic would seriously undermine their transportation plans.

Fairfax is also looking to make biking a more central part of transportation - particulalry in Tysons, but also elsewhere. While some of that will be by expanding bike lanes, it will also involve improving routes involved shared lanes.

[Bigfoot424]

Originally Posted by brooklynborndad

So, even LE thinks the speed limit is not the law, but a suggestion.

Thanks for clarifying.

Retired but you're welcome.

[car54]

So the real question here is....are motor vehicle operators as bad as bicycle operators?

Yes, of course....large majorities of both are horrible. And?

[OrangeFish]

Originally Posted by brooklynborndad

Shouldn't the second vehicle have been able to stop if they were keeping adequate distance for their speed?

We had just turned the corner. No one expects to see a bicycle in the middle of the travel lane at that point.