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Old 03-19-2013, 11:22 PM
 
1,403 posts, read 1,845,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
As someone who is interested in living in greater Washington, but in a more walkable place, I am continuing to take steps toward moving to DC, Arlington, or the City of Alexandria (these last two of course are in Northern Virginia)
Yes, voting with one's feet is a fine tradition in America. I welcome your prospective move to where things are more to your liking. I prefer that to others attempting to the change things for the rest of us who are happy with the status quo (more or less) here.
Quote:
But meanwhile, while I live in Fairfax, I will advocate for making it more walkable. I believe that will help many people who live here, without harming most of those who are less interested in walkability.
That's just the thing -- "without harming most of those who are less interested in walkability." As a generic statement, there is a finite resource for government spending (or there ought to be) and there are competing ideas, interests and demands. Many Fairfax residents would prefer to spend that money on other ideas and forms of developments, that is to say, something other than "walkability."
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
I wonder if I had suggested that if we were like Pope Francis...
I have continued to read about the Pope the last few days (thanks WaPo for good coverage) and my sense is that his lack of bus stigma is no anomaly wrt his general outlook on life and society.
I was not outraged by your earlier exhortation to imitate the new Pope. As an obedient Catholic, I strive to follow ALL the teachings of my Church. Those who are like I am often find the "cafeteria" mentality of some folks who call themselves Catholics off-putting ("Yay to social justice, nay to pro-life and pro-natural family planning").

In this particular case, I think some may find the exhortation disingenuous and possibly insulting because 1) you are not a Catholic, 2) you have never expressed any admiration for, or desire to follow, Catholic teachings in the past, 3) you seem to be picking and choosing elements from the life examples of the new Pope to suit your particular ideology and 4) the new Pope's personal transportation propensity in Buenos Aires has absolutely nothing to do with transportation needs and concerns of the majority of residents of Fairfax County, VA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVA1990 View Post
It is upsetting we've not had a pope from NoVA.
Well, some day we might. It was a big step to have one from the Americas. Cardinal Dolan of New York was a dark horse this time. To the extent that a lot of priests are quite orthodox in NoVA and the Church overall is heading that direction, I'd say the chance of one becoming a Pope one day doesn't seem nearly as impossible as before!
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Old 03-20-2013, 07:02 AM
 
Location: Fairfax County, VA
3,718 posts, read 4,763,944 times
Reputation: 1454
Quote:
Originally Posted by phrekyos View Post
I understand it just fine. You're the one that doesn't "get it". Sometimes people have a reason to be farther behind the car in front of them than usual. That's all. Get over it.
No. Don't tell me to get over it. What happens there is not proper driving etiquette.

You're probably one of those drivers who does that. Just don't get mad if someone honks their own at you. They just want you to move up to conserve more space for other cars.

How about this; I'll drive my brothers motorcycle one day and if you're ever in front me at a traffic light leaving a one-two car gap in front of you, I'll utilize that open space and cut in front of you. How does that sound?
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Old 03-20-2013, 07:05 AM
 
6,349 posts, read 8,358,780 times
Reputation: 1761
The traffic and the bad air.
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Old 03-20-2013, 07:21 AM
 
Location: Tysons Corner
2,772 posts, read 3,635,605 times
Reputation: 1495
The whiners and self indulgent retrospectives from people who have lived here for two years and came here for a job without an open mind as to themselves being the reason this area "is upsetting"
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Old 03-20-2013, 08:01 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,746 posts, read 10,658,166 times
Reputation: 2479
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
Yes, voting with one's feet is a fine tradition in America. !
Yes it is. So is advocating for change. Sometimes one is the best solution, sometimes the other.

Exit, Voice, and Loyalty: Responses to Decline in Firms, Organizations, and States: Albert O. Hirschman: 9780674276604: Amazon.com: Books

Quote:
That's just the thing -- "without harming most of those who are less interested in walkability." As a generic statement, there is a finite resource for government spending (or there ought to be) and there are competing ideas, interests and demands. !
many of the policies that I advocate for do not involve incremental spending, but changes in zoning to make it easier for the private sector to provide the walkable places now in demand. Others will, arguably, pay for themselves. In Tysons we have a grand experiment in attempting to do that.

Quote:
Many Fairfax residents would prefer to spend that money on other ideas and forms of developments, that is to say, something other than "walkability."!
Then I encourage them to become active in the political process, make the case for the benefits of the policies they support, and support politicians who agree with them. Looking at the results of county politics, including the zoning to protect suburban densities in Pimmit Hills, in places close to the Merrifield center, the priority the County is giving to widening Rte 7, etc, I would say they have been successful (there have also been defeats for "urbanism" not driven by county policy, but by VDOT policy that disagreed with the FFX BOS priorities) There are some people in the county who are strongly urbanist, some who are strongly antiurbanist - in their visions for FFX that is - but my sense is that the center of County politics is largely in between. In that context people on both sides will advocate for their positions. As I said I will advocate for mine.




Quote:
2) you have never expressed any admiration for, or desire to follow, Catholic teachings in the past,
In fact there have been various social teachings of the Catholic church I have admired at various time - but they were mostly not on topic for this forum, so I did not mention them. I do not consider this forum the ideal place to discuss general political or social issues. Of course I do not discuss specifically religion teachings of the church, as I am not Catholic. And to remind, I did NOT start a thread to discuss the Popes position on this. I saw a thread, in which people complained about life in NoVa - and the coincidence of this, with things we learned about the pope that seemed to me to speak directly to some of those complaints, inspired me to post them. I'm sorry some found that offensive.

I continue to think its relevant - while naturally many people do not ride buses in this region because its inconvenient for them, its widely believed that some people avoid buses out of stigma connected to their use by the poor. The overcoming of that seems to me to be what was most newsworthy about the Popes use of buses in Buenos Aires - that BA's layout makes transit more convenient is probably mostly of interest to urbanists and transit geeks. If more people could themselves overcome that stigma, that could open up some choices for them, as well as having side benefits for the region.

Last edited by brooklynborndad; 03-20-2013 at 08:13 AM..
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:03 PM
 
Location: D.C.
2,199 posts, read 1,821,788 times
Reputation: 3458
Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonsengineer View Post
The whiners and self indulgent retrospectives from people who have lived here for two years and came here for a job without an open mind as to themselves being the reason this area "is upsetting"

Haha! I have to admit, the man does have a point!

Good thing he's not in Loudoun with the rest of us "transplants" that keep muckin' up the joint!
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:21 PM
 
5,070 posts, read 8,606,610 times
Reputation: 2722
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
In this particular case, I think some may find the exhortation disingenuous and possibly insulting because 1) you are not a Catholic, 2) you have never expressed any admiration for, or desire to follow, Catholic teachings in the past, 3) you seem to be picking and choosing elements from the life examples of the new Pope to suit your particular ideology and 4) the new Pope's personal transportation propensity in Buenos Aires has absolutely nothing to do with transportation needs and concerns of the majority of residents of Fairfax County, VA.
I've also read that the new Pope cooks many of his own meals. I suspect residents of single-family homes in NoVa do that at least as often as close-in dwellers in denser housing who celebrate their urban dining choices and (weirdly) malign all suburban restaurants as variations on Applebees. So, if we are so inclined, we likely could all find something to admire in Pope Francis.

I would not take umbrage at non-Catholics commenting on the Pope's choices, and their purported relevance to NoVa, just as I felt fit to comment on the religious leanings of Jews choosing to raise their (often large) families in single-family homes in West Bank settlements, rather than in apartment blocks built within Israel's pre-1967 borders, and the relevance of these choices to decisions made by families in NoVa with children.

In this case, the quick references to the Pope's affinity for riding buses and living in an apartment, as support for BBD's favored causes, struck me as opportunistic and heavy-handed. The implication appeared to be that, if only other Catholics followed his lead, NoVa would be a better place. It did seem disingenuous, because I doubt BBD would follow many of the Pope's other teachings, and self-serving, insofar as BBD's posts on single-family homes in NoVa (as also reflected in a recent, seemingly gratuitous post suggesting that larger homes now built in Pimmit Hills could be "repurposed" as multifamily dwellings), in my estimation, go beyond advocacy for giving people additional choices and appear to reflect a hostility towards the choices available to, and made by, others who grew up in different environments and, perhaps, are prepared to spend more on housing than it costs to rent an Annandale townhouse. Resentment masked as idealism has a long and painful history, and I don't think it's bad to hope it doesn't take root here any more deeply than it already has (something I find increasingly distateful about the region) or call it out when it rears its head.
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:42 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,746 posts, read 10,658,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEB77 View Post
In this case, the quick references to the Pope's affinity for riding buses and living in an apartment, as support for BBD's favored causes, struck me as opportunistic and heavy-handed. The implication appeared to be that, if only other Catholics followed his lead,.

You misread me - I though it would make NoVa a better place if people in NoVa, regardless of faith, followed him on that.

Quote:
NoVa would be a better place. It did seem disingenuous, because I doubt BBD would follow many of the Pope's other teachings,.
The overlap between the ethical teachings of catholicism and those I follow is large. There are some where our different faith traditions disagree. If you wish to explore those I invite you to the Judaism forum to discuss them.

Quote:
and self-serving, insofar as BBD's posts on single-family homes in NoVa (as also reflected in a recent post suggesting that larger homes built in Pimmit Hills could be "repurposed" as multifamily dwellings), in my estimation, go beyond advocacy for giving people additional choices and appear to reflect a hostility.
oh cmon. Buildings age, and often lose relative value when they do, and sometimes change their functions. McMansions wont be immune from that. Ive spent lots of time in urban areas where 19th century mansions have been subdivided, become rooming houses, etc. Others had already raised the issue of the likely role of Pimmit Hills as Tysons grows. Driven by the market. And the NYT runs a piece on the actual use of McMansions as group homes. This is sounding kind of thin skinned. I mean is suggesting that a 3200 sq ft house might, at some future time, end up as a group home, or even four 800 sq ft apts really so offensive?


Quote:
towards the choices available to, and made by, others who grew up in different environments and, .
AFAICT there is a very limited relationship here between where folks grew up and their views on these issues. There are city born folks who love big houses far out, and there are lots of people in the hippest urban places who grew up in the suburbs, and they are often the most vocal about their views on the suburbs.

Quote:
perhaps, can afford more than an Annandale townhouse..
One more time. Sometime back (when I still commented on aesthetics) someone suggested that McMansion dislike is envy. I admitted at the time, and still admit, that I feel envy for certain residences - I believe at the time I suggested the waterfront townhomes in Old Town. I have never felt the same emotion towards McMansions. The attempt to reduce all aesthetic criticism, or it seems, all criticism, of the choices of the wealth to envy is an easy rhetoric, but I beleive a false one.

Quote:
Resentment masked as idealism has a long and painful history, and I don't think it's bad to hope it doesn't take root here any more deeply than it already has (something I dislike about the region) or call it out when it rears its head.
The attempt to silence calls for change by calling them "envy" has been common in this country the last few years, but the majority have disagreed.

I would suggest that part of living in Fairfax is that there are going to be people who dislike hipsters, who dislike yuppies, who dislike immigrants, who dislike the poor, who dislike the rich, who dislike mcmansions, who dislike density, and who dislike "sprawl" One can learn to live with that, or one can depart.

We can attempt to judge each others motives - there are times it appears much posting is motivated by individuals attempting to maintain the values of their properties, or, less frequently, to talk down such values. I think its more fruitful to discuss substance.
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:17 PM
 
1,403 posts, read 1,845,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
Yes it is. So is advocating for change. Sometimes one is the best solution, sometimes the other.
In my view, the two are not morally equivalent. When you vote with your feet, you leave behind the people who like where they live in happiness.

When you change where you live to your liking, you run a much greater chance of upsetting those who like the status quo ante. I consider that more selfish of the two options.

Mind you, I am not talking about moral issues here -- obviously if there were injustice or immorality, people need to stay and fight and make a stand. But housing density and modes of transportation fall on the more preference side of the human heart. If I wanted walkability and subway (or bus), I'd move back to NYC and leave the suburban driving to the folks who like that just fine here alone, but that's just me.
Quote:
If more people could themselves overcome that stigma, that could open up some choices for them, as well as having side benefits for the region.
Like living in condos or townhomes with large numbers of kids? Here is the issue at hand with some of the things I've read from you about your preferences in NoVA -- many, possibly most, of the people here aren't buying what you are selling. You could call their preferences ignorance, failure to overcome stigma, lack of social conscience or whatever other negatively connotated label you care to apply. The fact of the matter is, they don't want it. I think at least some folks are put off by the continual insistence -- in tone if not in explicit words -- that they are wrong about their preferences unless they see it your way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEB77 View Post
Resentment masked as idealism has a long and painful history, and I don't think it's bad to hope it doesn't take root here any more deeply than it already has (something I find increasingly distateful about the region) or call it out when it rears its head.
There was a lot of things I disliked about Hong Kong and Singapore when I worked there, but one thing I did like there was the utter lack of envy toward those who were richer and more successful. Poorer and less successful folks there never seem to resent the former -- they just hustled more and wanted to be like their economic betters. It's no surprise that socities such as these are producing innovations today (I believe a number of East Asian socities rank very high on patents filed per capita in the world and several of them are expected to have the highest GDPs per capita in the world in the next 20 years, with the usual caveats about the difficulty of getting long-term projections right).

For a while now, I noticed something similar to that ethos in NoVA, but lately I've noticed more and more resentment and envy masquerading as idealism -- as you put it -- in this region. I don't know whether it's a demographic change, cultural change, political change or what have you, but I fear that will lead the elites here to adopt social posturing I find particularly galling -- pretending to be "for the people" all the while leading pampered lives, something I witnessed in Seattle a great deal (signs like "Hang Bush" and "Capitalism is Evil" hanging outside multi-million dollar dwellings and extraordinarily rich folks telling me that they don't believe in private property).
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
This is sounding kind of thin skinned.
Oh, no you didn't! (ILD waves his finger around.)

Yes, let us all be more thick-skinned from now on. You first.
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Old 03-21-2013, 07:25 AM
 
Location: Mclean, Va; West Palm Beach, Fl
513 posts, read 802,659 times
Reputation: 324
All the liberals who enjoy paying more in taxes.
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