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Old 04-24-2013, 10:34 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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"ADL has run a survey of antisemitic attitudes since the 60's and these surveys show that, despite Jews consistently harboring the least anti-black prejudice in America, blacks persistently hold substantially higher anti-Jewish views than, say, whites. And whereas such prejudice declines dramatically as education levels rise in other ethnic groups, the surveys show that among blacks it variously increases, stays the same or falls much less dramatically. Since this is off-topic, if you are interested in further continuing this discussion, I suggest we take it to another subforum or DM. "

What is on topic is locational decisions. some have said that blacks avoid certain parts of NoVa because blacks are more racist than Koreans. If black bigotry is driving locational decisions by blacks, and many black professionals are antisemitic (why they might be is indeed off topic) then one would expect them to particularly avoid heavily Jewish areas. My understanding is that in this region, they do not. In many areas they are said to particularly move toward Jewish areas. hence something else must be going on.

Quote:
Note - AFAICT korean americans leaving annandale are seeking areas with a significant concentration of korean americans - favoring centreville strongly over other areas.
"Except Koreans aren't avoiding other areas for being "too white." Koreans are found everywhere from MoCo to Centreville. As another poster pointed out in another thread, Centreville tends to attract less well-to-do Koreans. Better off ones seem to flock to areas like Oakton and parts of Dulle Tech Corridor. I very much doubt that most, if any, Koreans would write off Oakton, Great Falls or Clifton as "too white" if they could afford homes there. "

If there was an alternative that was both as affluent and korean, with houses selling at a discount to other areas, (IE a Korean equivalent of the black bourgeois sections of PG) they might. But there isnt - largely because there simply arent that many Koreans.

hence we cannot say that blacks who choose heavily black areas are racist, on the basis of them doing so.
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Old 04-24-2013, 10:38 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
And who's been engaging in this distateful practice of ranking "goodness" of racial groups, pray tell?
Hmm. possibly no one. then could we stop comparing asians and blacks as groups in terms of their preference for good schools, there proclivity to assimilate, the sadness of how they identify, etc, etc?
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Old 04-24-2013, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
ADL has run a survey of antisemitic attitudes since the 60's and these surveys show that, despite Jews consistently harboring the least anti-black prejudice in America, blacks persistently hold substantially higher anti-Jewish views than, say, whites. And whereas such prejudice declines dramatically as education levels rise in other ethnic groups, the surveys show that among blacks it variously increases, stays the same or falls much less dramatically.
That's interesting. I grew up with a Jewish parent and a black parent and never would have figured that. Would you care to post?
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Old 04-24-2013, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Tysons Corner, VA by way of TEXAS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
That's interesting. I grew up with a Jewish parent and a black parent and never would have figured that. Would you care to post?
I found this interesting too. I can't comment on the methodology used in the ADL surveys but I have never in my life actually met a black person who I've actually heard make anti-Semitic views or say anti-Semitic things. Other than the NOI types that is, and most people don't pay them any attention anyway.

I suspect that the question is likely framed or presented in a way that doesn't specifically or completely separate out Jews from other whites. Those higher percentages probably reflect some sort of methodological weakness on that level. I think there's a large amount of black people for whom Jewish = white. Of course we know that's not necessarily the case, but that's not the case for everyone. Speaking on a personal level I was in my early 20s in grad school before I ever even really thought of them as anything other than white. The main reason is because it wasn't a concern of mine - I don't really care what religion someone is and I also don't really care what someone's skin tone is. So for me, that was something I had no problem willfully ignoring.

Understanding better now that Jewish and white are two completely different things, I still don't care (lol). But at least I know better now.
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Old 04-24-2013, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majicdonjuan View Post
I found this interesting too. I can't comment on the methodology used in the ADL surveys but I have never in my life actually met a black person who I've actually heard make anti-Semitic views or say anti-Semitic things. Other than the NOI types that is, and most people don't pay them any attention anyway.
I don't understand how you would gauge this in a survey anyway. Like, if you go to a local supermarket and ask someone "How do you feel about X group," they're going to actually be candid with you? That's why I'd like to see the survey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by majicdonjuan View Post
I suspect that the question is likely framed or presented in a way that doesn't specifically or completely separate out Jews from other whites. Those higher percentages probably reflect some sort of methodological weakness on that level. I think there's a large amount of black people for whom Jewish = white. Of course we know that's not necessarily the case, but that's not the case for everyone.
Yeah and no. With blacks, I'd say that Jewish is considered somewhat of a subset of "white," much like Italian, but probably even moreso. Most are aware of the stereotypes that exist and thus mentally distinguish between them (and some hold those negative views). But so do whites. I still remember being in high school and a girl making a comment to the effect of "you know how greedy they are." I said, "Who? Who's so greedy?" And she said, "C'mon." I didn't say anything else and just went about my business. She was an overall cool person, but just made an effed up statement. So I got to deal with this type of racism from two different angles. But I dealt with it a lot less from the Jewish angle because most people are fearful of Jewish political power. So you don't hear some of the snide, thinly-veiled comments coming from people, ya know.
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Old 04-24-2013, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Tysons Corner, VA by way of TEXAS
725 posts, read 1,234,143 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I don't understand how you would gauge this in a survey anyway. Like, if you go to a local supermarket and ask someone "How do you feel about X group," they're going to actually be candid with you? That's why I'd like to see the survey.



Yeah and no. With blacks, I'd say that Jewish is considered somewhat of a subset of "white," much like Italian, but probably even moreso. Most are aware of the stereotypes that exist and thus mentally distinguish between them (and some hold those negative views). But so do whites. I still remember being in high school and a girl making a comment to the effect of "you know how greedy they are." I said, "Who? Who's so greedy?" And she said, "C'mon." I didn't say anything else and just went about my business. She was an overall cool person, but just made an effed up statement. So I got to deal with this type of racism from two different angles. But I dealt with it a lot less from the Jewish angle because most people are fearful of Jewish political power. So you don't hear some of the snide, thinly-veiled comments coming from people, ya know.
I get what you're saying since you're both black and Jewish. I guess being black but not Jewish, I would probably say more that it takes a certain baseline level of knowledge about both Jewish and mainstream white culture that not all people have. Blacks are a subset of all people so obviously that lack of knowledge manifests itself in some way.

With that being said, I can't say I'm too confident in this survey without seeing some form of methodology. My anecdotal experiences don't support that conclusion so I'd like to see exactly how they went about this. A quick Google search didn't turn up much more than this link.

ADL Survey: More Blacks Found To Be Anti-Semitic
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Old 04-24-2013, 01:39 PM
 
1,403 posts, read 2,140,881 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Do a Barrel Roll View Post
Truth be told, the most unwelcoming (albeit covertly) attitude I've been given from non-blacks has been from transplant and yuppie whites in DC itself who live very close to predominately black neighborhoods targeted for gentrification.
During the past several years I've lived in this region, I have heard bigoted remarks spoken in public on two occasions -- once was in Loudoun County where a black pastor exclaimed at a public meeting "We have to drive [insert slur against homosexuals] out of this county!" He was shouted down by others pretty quickly. The other time was in Georgetown where a group of rich white liberals discussed how even "their" enclave was being invaded by blacks. Here nobody shouted anybody down. I made a sarcastic remark and walked off.

I'd like to point out a couple of demographic factors. First, exurbs and outer suburbs are increasingly becoming highly diverse ethnically. Second, urban hipster areas are becoming very white. It's not the case everywhere, but the trend is pretty clear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVA1990 View Post
He was asking why few non-whites live in white areas so your incendiary remark missed the point. However, I suspect you two would get along great - perhaps over in the politics and controversies forum.
Correction, "African-Americans," not "non-whites." Black doesn't mean automatically all non-whites. And plenty of Asians and Hispanics live in white areas in NoVA. I've never heard of Asians or Hispanics avoiding majority white areas for being "too white."
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgtvatitans View Post
With that said, I think if a black person would want to live in an area where they are the only or one of the only blacks in that area, it takes a lot of boldness and my hat goes off to those individuals. You certainly take a risk regardless of where you live, but without having any evidence that you will be accepted as just another person in the neighborhood and not by being defined by your race, it's an even bigger risk in my opinion.
Shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldn't you give the benefit of doubt unless there is evidence to the contrary that you would be discriminated? Instead of assuming discrimination first and then only associating with those or neighborhoods that "prove themselves" to you?

By the way, an interesting social trend to note is that whites tend to have higher amount of anti-black prejudice with greater contact with blacks. In other words, whites living in western Fairfax with 5% black population is less likely to harbor prejudice against blacks than those whites living right next to majority black neighborhoods in DC. There is a reason that President (then candidate) Obama caught his big primary/caucaus break in, of all places, Iowa, the whitest state in the Union.
Quote:
Originally Posted by majicdonjuan View Post
You can see that the most concentrated area in terms of black population are obviously in parts of Arlington and Alexandria, but those areas also have a higher total population than places like Reston and Herndon. But proportionally? They are about the same. Asians, of which Koreans are a subset, are spread all over the county in high numbers. Even in areas such as Vienna and Oakton there is still a healthy Asian population, which likely includes Koreans (as the second most numerous Asian ethnicity in Fairfax).
You are missing the point. Ten years ago, that map with Asian dispersion in NoVA looked very different than it does today. My point is that, both Asians and Hispanics (with their own history of suffering discrimination) ventured into what were heavily majority white areas -- that's why they are so widespread in the region today.
Quote:
Finally to address another point I read earlier in the thread where someone made the point that lots of white kids go to Brooklyn every day to live in studios smaller than their closets back in the Midwest or something to that effect. Well, that is true, but its also true that far more Midwestern white kids choose NOT to go to Brooklyn to live that lifestyle, but choose something more similar to that which they are familiiar with. Like any other group people, black people have diverse preferences and do not behave as a monolithic bloc. Some black people prefer to self-segregate, as do some whites. Some prefer diversity, as do some whites. It is not all that different. The only difference is what people can afford.
Of course, likely a majority of white people stay where they grew up. You are right that's human nature. But when talking about larger trends, percentages do matter. Many rural Midwestern "white" towns are emptying of population. The young rural whites are leaving these areas and heading to highly diverse urban areas, Brooklyn being a highly symbolic example.

When looking at broader demographic trends, Asians are the most likely to live in a census tract with a majority non-Asian ethnic group and they are the most likely to be intermarried; whites are on the opposite end of the trend while blacks and Hispanics are somewhere in between. Now this is a national trend, but the geographic demography in NoVA probably does not diverge much from this pattern.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
some have said that blacks avoid certain parts of NoVa because blacks are more racist than Koreans.
Who did?
Quote:
If black bigotry is driving locational decisions by blacks, and many black professionals are antisemitic (why they might be is indeed off topic) then one would expect them to particularly avoid heavily Jewish areas. My understanding is that in this region, they do not. In many areas they are said to particularly move toward Jewish areas. hence something else must be going on.
Not necessarily. For example, it could very well be possible that a given non-white group's (in this case among blacks) "anti-Jewish" tendencies are a proxy for general "anti-white" tendencies, in which case, moving to a heavily Jewish area that is nonetheless lower in overall white numbers would make sense.
Quote:
If there was an alternative that was both as affluent and korean, with houses selling at a discount to other areas, (IE a Korean equivalent of the black bourgeois sections of PG) they might. But there isnt - largely because there simply arent that many Koreans.
Please clarify.

There is an additional factor to consider with Koreans or, better yet for demographical purposes, Asians in general. A substantial number of Asians are first generation immigrants and may have language problems that draw them to areas with similar ethnic profiles. With U.S.-born Asians, that is not the case. For example, per Pew Study, about 40% of Asians in America say that their social circle is dominated by people of the same ethnicity, but that number falls to only 17% for American-born Asians.

Blacks do not have this disadvantage of a language barrier.
Quote:
hence we cannot say that blacks who choose heavily black areas are racist, on the basis of them doing so.
To clarify, I did not say that "blacks who choose heavily black areas are racist." Given the OP's friend's rejection of some western Fairfax areas as "too white," I suggested that we should consider racist feelings against whites as a possibility, not simply the possibility of the fear of white racism against blacks in the region.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
Hmm. possibly no one. then could we stop comparing asians and blacks as groups in terms of their preference for good schools, there proclivity to assimilate, the sadness of how they identify, etc, etc?
To me, racism is attempting to predict an individual'sbehavior based on perceived group norms ("Hey, he's black, he must be good at basketball"; "She's Asians, she must be good at math"). This is both bad form and unscientific as there is a great deal of variation among individuals even within similar population clusters. That is NOT the same thing as comparing average group/demographic trends -- observing reality as is and attempting to discover causes, usually a combination of numerous inherited and environmental factors. Nobody bats an eyes (or should bat an eye) when doctors discuss blacks, on average, having higher heart diseases rates than, say, Asians, due likely to both differing genetic factors and dietary/lifestyle factors common to both of those population groups. That's called science. Again, might I suggest that we take this increasingly off-topic discussion to DM or another subforum more appropriate for the topic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by majicdonjuan View Post
I found this interesting too. I can't comment on the methodology used in the ADL surveys but I have never in my life actually met a black person who I've actually heard make anti-Semitic views or say anti-Semitic things. Other than the NOI types that is, and most people don't pay them any attention anyway.

I suspect that the question is likely framed or presented in a way that doesn't specifically or completely separate out Jews from other whites. Those higher percentages probably reflect some sort of methodological weakness on that level. I think there's a large amount of black people for whom Jewish = white.
That's a possibility. Here is a summary of a recent survey (ADL Poll Finds Anti-Semitic Attitudes on Rise in America). Check the site and elsewhere on the net for previous years.
Quote:
I don't really care what religion someone is and I also don't really care what someone's skin tone is. So for me, that was something I had no problem willfully ignoring.

Last edited by IndiaLimaDelta; 04-24-2013 at 01:58 PM..
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Old 04-24-2013, 01:42 PM
 
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One question to those of you on this tread who are black: how do you measure "friendliness to blacks" of a given area, say, eastern Fairfax vs. western Fairfax? Do you just use percentages of black population? Number of black churches, barbershops, etc.? Number of times stopped by local law enforcement on the road?

Or is it based more on feelings or "vibe"?
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:03 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
31,897 posts, read 34,410,920 times
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Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
Blacks do not have this disadvantage of a language barrier.
Neither do Jews. That doesn't stop Jews from concentrating in Mt. Airy/Germantown in Philadelphia.

I mean, do you have a problem with that too?

Do you have a problem with J-Date? Do you consider that "racist?"
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:15 PM
 
1,403 posts, read 2,140,881 times
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Neither do Jews. That doesn't stop Jews from concentrating in Mt. Airy/Germantown in Philadelphia.

I mean, do you have a problem with that too?

Do you have a problem with J-Date? Do you consider that "racist?"
First, I would ask you not to personalize the discussion. And, no, as I wrote before, I have no problem with people associating with or living next to or dating whomever they please. It's a free country.

I personally think it's sad and narrow-minded to limit one's social interactions based on race and religion. The OP asked our opinion of someone avoiding an area for being "too white." I gave my opinion on that matter as well as related demographic trends (which are more on the side of fact than opinion).

BTW, I was an "equal opportunity offender" when I was younger. I dated Asian, black, Hispanic and white as well as those of different religious backgrounds (atheist, Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Jewish and Muslim). When I eventually married, it was someone of a different ethnicity and a different religious background. I find differences fascinating.
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