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I was writing my response to your early posting and saw you posting more. Thanks for the links. That's good info to have.
Here are my other responses to your questions. As you do some of your own research, you might have already figured this out, but in case you haven't, here it goes---
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgtvatitans
So how do you go about counting exact number of people that are illegal? There is no documentation on them, they cannot be identified (they came over here illegally, how can you identify someone that doesn't exist to the government? No SSN, No Birth Certificate), and it's impossible to know how much they drain resources to an exact dollar.
.....
....
Please tell me, how they are able to do this for individuals that they have no record of. How do they know how many kids these individuals have? I would love to hear this one.
That is the biggest misconception of yours and others ill-informed on illegal immigrants. A vast majority of illegal immigrants come to the US legally under a certain type of visa and they become "illegal" as they don't return to their home countries and extend their stay here without properly adjusting their status. There are records of them here and there (e.g., departure/arrival records at the border, visa documents, SSN application, DMV records, etc) and the government can count and track down on them if needed. The government doesn't publish the number, but it's not difficult to get the estimates. For example, according to the NY Times, the estimated number of illegal immigrants in the US was 11.7 millions in 2012 (feel free to Google to verify the number). If anyone is curious and diligent enough, they can find out the number of illegal immigrants in our area from several sources. I'm sure reporters in WP have the number in the right ballpark. Why don't you ask them and share with us. Or you may request information from your representative's office. Or something like that.
The number of those who came over "illegally"---i.e., illegal border crossing--is actually very small, because it involves risking their lives one way or another. And even if they entered the border OK, they would be totally in the dark side of our society. The chances are, you probably have never met them. Further, you probably have never met anyone that has actually met them. They are completely excluded from any kind of the "amnesty"---the word you don't want to hear--by law. Apart from those a few big amnesties given to thousands/millions of illegal immigrants, there are small routes for the amnesty--such as marriage to a US citizen, but these people are completely excluded from any of these. They are just screwed. Once they are found by the authority, they are usually deported immediately. No exceptions. The United States of America is a great country, but think again if you think a great number of people are risking their lives to enter this country and to stay in total darkness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgtvatitans
You know the majority of them are paying income taxes based on what? How can you even be sure they are paying the right amount in income taxes.
Without exceptions, the biggest dream of those illegal immigrants is to get the green card and become legal. One of the requirements for the amnesty, whenever for the next time, is the history of tax returns. I cannot say all illegal immigrants pay income taxes, but many of them, or most of them, file tax returns, because the possible reward is too great to pass by. And quite often the USCIS and immigration groups run campaigns for those illegal immigrants, vouching that the government will not use the tax return record to enforce the immigration law. I had the opportunities to counsel them in the past and we basically say that, staying here illegal is bad, but not paying taxes even wipes out hopes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgtvatitans
How can you even be sure they are paying the right amount in income taxes.
This is a false accusation without ground. I'm sure some illegal immigrants cheat on their taxes. But, without evidence, I cannot agree with the premise that illegal immigrants cheat more often than US citizens or legal immigrants.
Ah yes, the oft-repeated quip that illegal immigrants are only takers. This despite the fact that they pay real estate taxes (whether they rent or own), personal property tax, and most definitely sales tax.
How do they pay personal property tax without being identified? It's either people are ignoring the fact that don't have a SSN or they are avoiding taxes. Either way, it is not good. I can't see how they can register a vehicle without id.
I was writing my response to your early posting and saw you posting more. Thanks for the links. That's good info to have.
Here are my other responses to your questions. As you do some of your own research, you might have already figured this out, but in case you haven't, here it goes---
That is the biggest misconception of yours and others ill-informed on illegal immigrants. A vast majority of illegal immigrants come to the US legally under a certain type of visa and they become "illegal" as they don't return to their home countries and extend their stay here without properly adjusting their status. There are records of them here and there (e.g., departure/arrival records at the border, visa documents, SSN application, DMV records, etc) and the government can count and track down on them if needed. The government doesn't publish the number, but it's not difficult to get the estimates. For example, according to the NY Times, the estimated number of illegal immigrants in the US was 11.7 millions in 2012 (feel free to Google to verify the number). If anyone is curious and diligent enough, they can find out the number of illegal immigrants in our area from several sources. I'm sure reporters in WP have the number in the right ballpark. Why don't you ask them and share with us. Or you may request information from your representative's office. Or something like that.
There is some truth to what you are saying here, but the flaw in your point is the government would not know the up to date data of that person. If they did and knew they were still here, then why would they not be deported and still able to use public resources?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequon
The number of those who came over "illegally"---i.e., illegal border crossing--is actually very small, because it involves risking their lives one way or another. And even if they entered the border OK, they would be totally in the dark side of our society. The chances are, you probably have never met them. Further, you probably have never met anyone that has actually met them. They are completely excluded from any kind of the "amnesty"---the word you don't want to hear--by law. Apart from those a few big amnesties given to thousands/millions of illegal immigrants, there are small routes for the amnesty--such as marriage to a US citizen, but these people are completely excluded from any of these. They are just screwed. Once they are found by the authority, they are usually deported immediately. No exceptions. The United States of America is a great country, but think again if you think a great number of people are risking their lives to enter this country and to stay in total darkness.
Please provide some proof to your assertion that many do not cross over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequon
Without exceptions, the biggest dream of those illegal immigrants is to get the green card and become legal. One of the requirements for the amnesty, whenever for the next time, is the history of tax returns. I cannot say all illegal immigrants pay income taxes, but many of them, or most of them, file tax returns, because the possible reward is too great to pass by. And quite often the USCIS and immigration groups run campaigns for those illegal immigrants, vouching that the government will not use the tax return record to enforce the immigration law. I had the opportunities to counsel them in the past and we basically say that, staying here illegal is bad, but not paying taxes even wipes out hopes.
But how do you ensure that they are paying the right amount? Are we dumb and naive enough to believe that all illegal immigrants will fill out their taxes properly and not cheat the system? Your own citizens do it, why would we assume illegal immigrants would not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequon
This is a false accusation without ground. I'm sure some illegal immigrants cheat on their taxes. But, without evidence, I cannot agree with the premise that illegal immigrants cheat more often than US citizens or legal immigrants.
It is not an accusation, it is simply to say that we simply do not know if they are paying their taxes properly. Again, people screw up their taxes all the time. If me or you do it, the IRS can track us. What do they do for illegal iimmigrants? You are avoiding the answer.
Not only did you avoid most of my questions, but you didn't provide any evidence to support some of your assertions. You told us what you thought, but what does that even mean? I don't know you from a hole in the ground, how do I know, you know what you are talking about.
Let me add another point. This idea that language is a part of this debate, is only partially true. For example, I have a friend who was born in another country but moved here at a young age. He went to school just like me, can speak English just like me yet he was not legal when he came to this nation. He eventually naturalized but the point is, this issue is bigger than most people realize, but there are a lot of people coming into this conversation with few facts and already have their mind made up with just what they assume to be true.
There is some truth to what you are saying here, but the flaw in your point is the government would not know the up to date data of that person. If they did and knew they were still here, then why would they not be deported and still able to use public resources?
"Undocumented worker" simply means they are out of legal immigration status. But most of them are documented in the government file one way or another--for example, IRS, DMV (this depends on each state, I'm less sure about VA). You keep saying that the government lost track of them, but that's not true. They even get IRS audits. Of course I'm not saying the government knows everything about them, but they actually know more than you think they do.
Then why are they not deported? Well, it's complicated. One short answer is, the government has a lot of other important things to do than deporting them. Actually, if they were a criminal, they are deported right away. But those living quietly paying taxes, obviously they don't get deported. You go ask your representative why he doesn't push immigration enforcement hard. You will probably get a similar answer. Another answer is, it is practically not such a smart idea to deport all of them. There are 11.7 millions of those in this country. Do you think we are better off if they were all removed from this country? Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with you on that. Believe it or not, they have become part of economy. This may be controversial, but at least I can say that there are more than enough people not agreeing with you--not only liberals but also some republicans as well, for the sake of economy. Remember? The first large scale of amnesty was supported and signed by Reagan in 1986--again, for the sake of humanity (face value) / economy (real value).
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgtvatitans
[Why are they] still able to use public resources?
Again, most of them are actively playing a role in our economy and paying taxes. As such, they deserve to use public resources. But because of people like you, they use them sparingly, if any. Don't be a jerk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgtvatitans
Please provide some proof to your assertion that many do not cross over.
I speak out of my own experience. I do not make an argument just with a few links here and there, like some people. If some of those things make sense, good. If not, that's up to you. If you are further curious, look for more information, learn, talk to other people who know this stuff. I think I did my part.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgtvatitans
But how do you ensure that they are paying the right amount? Are we dumb and naive enough to believe that all illegal immigrants will fill out their taxes properly and not cheat the system? Your own citizens do it, why would we assume illegal immigrants would not?
I say again and again and probably will not any more.
If you want to accuse someone of something, you must bring the evidence.
Don't ask me to prove that someone is innocent.
We cannot prove that, because everyone is innocent until the evidence proves otherwise.
Doesn't matter illegal immigrants or citizens. Doesn't matter criminals living in the cell. Just because you want to suspect some wrongdoing, you cannot ask to prove its innocence.
The debate works only if you bring the evidence of someone's wrongdoing first, then we can evaluate your evidence and see if that accusation is justified.
You keep arguing that illegal immigrants don't pay (or cheat) taxes.
I say, maybe some don't pay taxes or cheat. But cannot say they cheat more than citizens and legal immigrants do, without the evidence. And you keep coming back and ask me to prove my points? Man, this seems like never ending.
"Undocumented worker" simply means the legal immigration status. But most of them are documented in the government file one way or another--for example, IRS, DMV (this depends on each state, I'm less sure about VA). You keep saying that the government lost track of them, but that's not true. They even get IRS audits. Of course I'm not saying the government knows everything about them, but they actually know more than you think they do.
Then why are they not deported? Well, it's complicated. One short answer is, the government has a lot of other important things to do than deporting them. Actually, if they were a criminal, they are deported right away. But those living quietly paying taxes, obviously they don't get deported. You go ask your representative why he doesn't push immigration enforcement hard. You will probably get a similar answer. Another answer is, it is practically not such a smart idea to deport all of them. There are 11.7 millions of those in this country. Do you think we are better off if they were all removed from this country? Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with you on that. Believe it or not, they have become part of economy. This may be controversial, but at least I can say that there are more than enough people not agreeing with you--not only liberals but also some republicans as well, for the sake of economy. Remember? The first large scale of amnesty was supported and signed by Reagan in 1986--again, for the sake of humanity (face value) / economy (real value).
You still don't get it. If you are here illegally how would the government know they are still here? You would not be able to legally work so you either illegally got a job or the government is letting you stay. Either way laws are being broken.
How can you get audited if you are not legally able to work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequon
Again, most of them are actively playing a role in our economy and paying taxes. As such, they deserve to use public resources. But because of people like you, they use them sparingly, if any. Don't be a jerk.
I speak out of my own experience. I do not make an argument just with a few links here and there, like some people. If some of those things make sense, good. If not, that's up to you. If you are further curious, look for more information, learn, talk to other people who know this stuff. I think I did my part.
You did not. You have given your opinion based on your own experiences. It doesn't add anything to conversation because nothing you said can be verified.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequon
I say again and again and probably will not any more.
If you want to accuse someone of something, you must bring the evidence.
Don't ask me to prove that someone is innocent.
We cannot prove that, because everyone is innocent until the evidence proves otherwise.
Doesn't matter illegal immigrants or citizens. Doesn't matter criminals living in the cell. Just because you want to suspect some wrongdoing, you cannot ask to prove its innocence.
The debate works only if you bring the evidence of someone's wrongdoing first, then we can evaluate your evidence and see if that accusation is justified.
You keep arguing that illegal immigrants don't pay (or cheat) taxes.
I say, maybe some don't pay taxes or cheat. But cannot say they cheat more than citizens and legal immigrants do, without the evidence. And you keep coming back and ask me to prove my points? Man, this seems like never ending.
You win. Alright?
It's obvious that you aren't reading my response or you are purposefully twisting my words to use it as an excuse to leave the conversation, but the point was never to say that this does happen. It was to show that you can't assume it won't so how do you prevent tax fraud from illegal immigrants. I asked you this question twice and you have avoided the answer. The truth is you likely don't have an answer because one doesn't exist. It is impossible for the IRS to audit illegal immigrants if they have no information about them and their families.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequon
I got better things to do in my life.
So long. Sayonara.
Like making up facts and convince yourself they are true without proof or logic? Have fun. Bye!
I have attempted to at least converse with you to understand where you are getting your information but you seem pretty set on what you believe with no basis.
"Undocumented worker" simply means they are out of legal immigration status. But most of them are documented in the government file one way or another--for example, IRS, DMV (this depends on each state, I'm less sure about VA). You keep saying that the government lost track of them, but that's not true. They even get IRS audits. Of course I'm not saying the government knows everything about them, but they actually know more than you think they do.
Then why are they not deported? Well, it's complicated. One short answer is, the government has a lot of other important things to do than deporting them. Actually, if they were a criminal, they are deported right away. But those living quietly paying taxes, obviously they don't get deported. You go ask your representative why he doesn't push immigration enforcement hard. You will probably get a similar answer. Another answer is, it is practically not such a smart idea to deport all of them. There are 11.7 millions of those in this country. Do you think we are better off if they were all removed from this country? Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with you on that. Believe it or not, they have become part of economy. This may be controversial, but at least I can say that there are more than enough people not agreeing with you--not only liberals but also some republicans as well, for the sake of economy. Remember? The first large scale of amnesty was supported and signed by Reagan in 1986--again, for the sake of humanity (face value) / economy (real value).
Again, most of them are actively playing a role in our economy and paying taxes. As such, they deserve to use public resources. But because of people like you, they use them sparingly, if any. Don't be a jerk.
I speak out of my own experience. I do not make an argument just with a few links here and there, like some people. If some of those things make sense, good. If not, that's up to you. If you are further curious, look for more information, learn, talk to other people who know this stuff. I think I did my part.
I say again and again and probably will not any more.
If you want to accuse someone of something, you must bring the evidence.
Don't ask me to prove that someone is innocent.
We cannot prove that, because everyone is innocent until the evidence proves otherwise.
Doesn't matter illegal immigrants or citizens. Doesn't matter criminals living in the cell. Just because you want to suspect some wrongdoing, you cannot ask to prove its innocence.
The debate works only if you bring the evidence of someone's wrongdoing first, then we can evaluate your evidence and see if that accusation is justified.
You keep arguing that illegal immigrants don't pay (or cheat) taxes.
I say, maybe some don't pay taxes or cheat. But cannot say they cheat more than citizens and legal immigrants do, without the evidence. And you keep coming back and ask me to prove my points? Man, this seems like never ending.
You win. Alright?
I got better things to do in my life.
So long. Sayonara.
A person is guilty because he commits a crime, not because you can prove it. In a debate environment, proof is helpful for either side. For criminal law, judges simply pronounce people "not guilty," which doesn't even mean that they are innocent. Illegal aliens are guilty of law breaking by definition. Their entire existence is based on gaming the system, of which they are masters. Of the ones that do get tax id's from the IRS to pay taxes, they are now defrauding the system of about $4 billion a year. Rep. Kingston: End Child Tax Credits for Illegal Aliens This just goes with the territory when you bring this element into the country. For localities, one article said that the average annual cost per student is $13,000 per year, so the cost to local government is quite high. Even the most sympathetic articles towards illegals admit that they cost more than they pay in. Since property taxes are the primary way that Fairfax County funds schools, this has to be a fairly small revenue stream. Illegals are part of the growing homeless population and when they do live in houses, they often illegally hold 20 or so people. This isn't going to provide much tax revenue per person, which I presume some are trying to say that they pay vicariously through rent.
Last edited by PetaltoMetal; 10-29-2013 at 10:13 AM..
A person is guilty because he commits a crime, not because you can prove it. In a debate environment, proof is helpful for either side. For criminal law, judges simply pronounce people "not guilty," which doesn't even mean that they are innocent. Illegal aliens are guilty of law breaking by definition. Their entire existence is based on gaming the system, of which they are masters. Of the ones that do get tax id's from the IRS to pay taxes, they are now defrauding the system of about $4 billion a year. Rep. Kingston: End Child Tax Credits for Illegal Aliens This just goes with the territory when you bring this element into the country. For localities, one article said that the average annual cost per student is $13,000 per year, so the cost to local government is quite high. Even the most sympathetic articles towards illegals admit that they cost more than they pay in. Since property taxes are the primary way that Fairfax County funds schools, this has to be a fairly small revenue stream. Illegals are part of the growing homeless population and when they do live in houses, they often illegally hold 20 or so people. This isn't going to provide much tax revenue per person, which I presume some are trying to say that they pay vicariously through rent.
There was a release today about a large fine that the Government is about to impose on an Indian outsourcing country, Infosys, for deliberately bringing workers into the country with the wrong visas. Some of them probably ended up working in Fairfax County. It's unclear whether it had any impact on local tax receipts; instead, the driving concern appears to have been that the workers did work that Americans could have done. But, to speak to Sequon's earlier point, the Government certainly would have known these people were in the country; it simply may not have realized, until an investigation was launched, that they were here under false pretenses and had stayed longer than permitted.
In general, I think the evidence is all around us that people coming to this country - and this jurisdiction - want to work and get ahead. I get that the impact that this may have on labor markets shouldn't be ignored and that it particularly rankles American-born citizens who feel like others are taking their jobs or undercutting their wages. But the notion that people sit around in their native countries and discuss the comparative safety nets in different local U.S. jurisdictions for the aimless and the unemployed, in order to game the system, doesn't ring true to me.
As to whether there are specific things that Fairfax should be doing that would take it off your preferred "sanctuary city/county" list, I keep waiting for you to identify exactly what they are. Certainly, under federal law, a local school system cannot legally deny elementary or secondary education to children based on their immigration status.
P.S. - In this country, you are innocent until proven guilty. It's really a pretty good guiding principle.
There was a release today about a large fine that the Government is about to impose on an Indian outsourcing country, Infosys, for deliberately bringing workers into the country with the wrong visas. Some of them probably ended up working in Fairfax County. It's unclear whether it had any impact on local tax receipts; instead, the driving concern appears to have been that the workers did work that Americans could have done. But, to speak to Sequon's earlier point, the Government certainly would have known these people were in the country; it simply may not have realized, until an investigation was launched, that they were here under false pretenses and had stayed longer than permitted.
In general, I think the evidence is all around us that people coming to this country - and this jurisdiction - want to work and get ahead. I get that the impact that this may have on labor markets shouldn't be ignored and that it particularly rankles American-born citizens who feel like others are taking their jobs or undercutting their wages. But the notion that people sit around in their native countries and discuss the comparative safety nets in different local U.S. jurisdictions for the aimless and the unemployed, in order to game the system, doesn't ring true to me.
As to whether there are specific things that Fairfax should be doing that would take it off your preferred "sanctuary city/county" list, I keep waiting for you to identify exactly what they are. Certainly, under federal law, a local school system cannot legally deny elementary or secondary education to children based on their immigration status.
P.S. - In this country, you are innocent until proven guilty. It's really a pretty good guiding principle.
Here are some links to articles about Fairfax County and Herdon and their sanctuary city status. I could explain more about the policies but right now, I am pretty weary of a new set of attacks and defenses. Also about doing more research that has to be current and accurate. Sanctuary Cities: Fairfax County, Va. | Latino America | ASU News21Herndon could become a sanctuary city again -- FairfaxTimes.com It doesn't really matter, but this is just fiction that I never said. "But the notion that people sit around in their native countries and discuss the comparative safety nets in different local U.S. jurisdictions for the aimless and the unemployed, in order to game the system, doesn't ring true to me." The truth is, word gets out about services and lack of immigration enforcement, usually by word of mouth. The availability of welfare programs does matter, whether coming internationally or domestically. Also, this makes no sense in the context of estimates. "P.S. - In this country, you are innocent until proven guilty. It's really a pretty good guiding principle." You don't arrest and convict the deer when you try to estimate how many there are, and I could only wish that you could arrest and convict what the Pew Research Center says are the 50 percent of Hispanic immigrants who are here illegally. A court of law is quite different from the fields of estimates and debate.
Here are some links to articles about Fairfax County and Herdon and their sanctuary city status. I could explain more about the policies but right now, I am pretty weary of a new set of attacks and defenses. Also about doing more research that has to be current and accurate. Sanctuary Cities: Fairfax County, Va. | Latino America | ASU News21Herndon could become a sanctuary city again -- FairfaxTimes.com It doesn't really matter, but this is just fiction that I never said. "But the notion that people sit around in their native countries and discuss the comparative safety nets in different local U.S. jurisdictions for the aimless and the unemployed, in order to game the system, doesn't ring true to me." The truth is, word gets out about services and lack of immigration enforcement, usually by word of mouth. The availability of welfare programs does matter, whether coming internationally or domestically. Also, this makes no sense in the context of estimates. "P.S. - In this country, you are innocent until proven guilty. It's really a pretty good guiding principle." You don't arrest and convict the deer when you try to estimate how many there are, and I could only wish that you could arrest and convict what the Pew Research Center says are the 50 percent of Hispanic immigrants who are here illegally. A court of law is quite different from the fields of estimates and debate.
I read both of your articles as well as your earlier link to the list of sanctuary cities/counties. I have yet to read about a single, specific policy enacted by Fairfax County that makes it a so-called sanctuary county. Rather, I read quotes by Sharon Bulova about how Fairfax County fully cooperates with the Feds when it comes to illegal immigration, about some sort of communities program the police use, and a bunch of fluff that Fairfax County values diversity.
Can you name a single, specific policy or law that Fairfax County has enacted and how it makes Fairfax County a sanctuary city? I am genuinely interested as I don't have a lot of strong views on immigration. I have always felt that it is such a complex issue with so many facets where the real issues are drowned out by partisans on both sides who have a lot of emotion, but not a lot of facts or logic to back them up.
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