Which school pyramids are considered "desirable" in Fairfax County? (McLean: mattress, homes)

[claremarie]

Are Marshall's SAT scores higher than Madison's because of the presence of out-of-boundary IB students at Marshall? Or are the non-IB Marshall students posting higher scores as well? My understanding is that the IB programs are like "schools within a school," and there is limited interaction between the IB students and everyone else.

[tankdude]

Originally Posted by claremarie

Are Marshall's SAT scores higher than Madison's because of the presence of out-of-boundary IB students at Marshall? Or are the non-IB Marshall students posting higher scores as well? My understanding is that the IB programs are like "schools within a school," and there is limited interaction between the IB students and everyone else.

I believe the former to be correct. That's a great point.

The same applies to Montgomery Blair HS in Silver Spring. It's got a great magnet program, but a mediocre overall rating because it's also a neighborhood school.

I think MB would compare favorably to TJ if MB was strictly a magnet school.

[JEB77]

Originally Posted by claremarie

Are Marshall's SAT scores higher than Madison's because of the presence of out-of-boundary IB students at Marshall? Or are the non-IB Marshall students posting higher scores as well? My understanding is that the IB programs are like "schools within a school," and there is limited interaction between the IB students and everyone else.

The SAT scores of out-of-boundary IB students are included in what Fairfax County reports as Marshall's SAT scores, just as the SAT scores of out-of-boundary AP students are included in the SAT scores at Madison or Oakton. I'm not sure why there would be any reason to exclude their scores, but in any event FCPS does not publicly release the numbers calculated on an alternative basis.

I would not characterize the IB programs as "schools within a school" - they are not separate "academies" and students may take a mix of IB and non-IB courses. When they are juniors and seniors, however, the students seeking a full IB diploma will take primarily IB courses. Upper-class students at AP schools, of course, tend to take primarily AP courses as well.

At an AP school school, a student who is strong in math, but not so strong in other subjects, can simply take the advanced math classes and then take the AP exam. There is no issue that the student will somehow be stigmatized if he or she did not take other AP exams. In comparison, some parents worry that, at an IB school, their child will be at a disadvantage in the college admissions process if he or she is not seeking the full IB diploma. These concerns may be overstated, but they are one reason why some parents and students may prefer AP. Not all do.

[JEB77]

Originally Posted by tankdude

I believe the former to be correct. That's a great point.

The same applies to Montgomery Blair HS in Silver Spring. It's got a great magnet program, but a mediocre overall rating because it's also a neighborhood school.

I think MB would compare favorably to TJ if MB was strictly a magnet school.

Yes, but it proceeds from the faulty premise that an IB program at Marshall or other Fairfax schools with IB programs are magnet "schools within a school" analogous to the magnet program at Montgomery Blair.

In Fairfax, the vast majority of students taking IB courses are doing so at their neighborhood schools, with some pupil placements. For example, Marshall does receive IB pupil placements from schools such as McLean, Langley and Madison. There are also pupil placements from IB schools to AP schools, and the SAT results of those students are included in the latter schools' test scores. For example, Madison receives AP pupil placements from schools such as South Lakes and Marshall.

[tankdude]

Originally Posted by JEB77

Yes, but it proceeds from the faulty premise that an IB program at Marshall or other Fairfax schools with IB programs are magnet "schools within a school" analogous to the magnet program at Montgomery Blair.

In Fairfax, the vast majority of students taking IB courses are doing so at their neighborhood schools, with some pupil placements. For example, Marshall does receive IB pupil placements from schools such as McLean, Langley and Madison. There are also pupil placements from IB schools to AP schools, and the SAT results of those students are included in the latter schools' test scores. For example, Madison receives AP pupil placements from schools such as South Lakes and Marshall.

I think if the data is available, and if it shows that there are a lot of out of boundary students attending Marshall, then that's a good reason why their SAT scores are a bit higher than Madison's.

Kids who are coming to Marshall for the IB program are probably highly motivated and focused on doing well on the IB program. These high achievers probably do well on their SAT's also, resulting in the higher average score. I think AP to IB transfer is probably a more prevalent scenario than vice versa.

I wonder if FFX provides the median SAT score, not just the average.

[JEB77]

Originally Posted by tankdude

I think if the data is available, and if it shows that there are a lot of out of boundary students attending Marshall, then that's a good reason why their SAT scores are a bit higher than Madison's.

Kids who are coming to Marshall for the IB program are probably highly motivated and focused on doing well on the IB program. These high achievers probably do well on their SAT's also, resulting in the higher average score. I think AP to IB transfer is probably a more prevalent scenario than vice versa.

I wonder if FFX provides the median SAT score, not just the average.

Someone may be able to locate data on the student placements between different schools.

It would be a bit ironic if the pupil placements into Marshall or South Lakes exceeded the pupil placements out of those schools, since posters like Denton56 have stated that parents and students dislike IB programs. If that were the case, one would expect to see more out-placements than in-placements. At least in South Lakes' case, I expect you will see a lot of pupil placements out of South Lakes for a few years following the latest redistricting, since few welcome boundary changes and Fairfax provides an "exit route" through pupil placements. I also believe that will subside over time.

With respect to Marshall's having narrowed the SAT gap with Madison, and then surpassing Madison's scores last year, I suspect this has at least as much to do with the newer, and relatively expensive, housing built in the Tysons area that feeds into Marshall during the past 10-15 years, combined with the aging of some of the neighborhoods that feed into Madison, as with IB pupil placements. The overall differences are so minor that I also would not be surprised if the scores at Madison were higher than Marshall this coming year, or the next.

The only reason to discuss this at all is to rebut the notion that there are somehow only 5-6 high schools out of a much larger 25-school system where responsible parents could send their children.

[tankdude]

Originally Posted by JEB77

Someone may be able to locate data on the student placements between different schools.

It would be a bit ironic if the pupil placements into Marshall or South Lakes exceeded the pupil placements out of those schools, since posters like Denton56 have stated that parents and students dislike IB programs. If that were the case, one would expect to see more out-placements than in-placements. At least in South Lakes' case, I expect you will see a lot of pupil placements out of South Lakes for a few years following the latest redistricting, since few welcome boundary changes and Fairfax provides an "exit route" through pupil placements. I also believe that will subside over time.

With respect to Marshall's having narrowed the SAT gap with Madison, and then surpassing Madison's scores last year, I suspect this has at least as much to do with the newer, and relatively expensive, housing built in the Tysons area that feeds into Marshall during the past 10-15 years, combined with the aging of some of the neighborhoods that feed into Madison, as with IB pupil placements. The overall differences are so minor that I also would not be surprised if the scores at Madison were higher than Marshall this coming year, or the next.

The only reason to discuss this at all is to rebut the notion that there are somehow only 5-6 high schools out of a much larger 25-school system where responsible parents could send their children.

It's not just about "responsible" parents. It's really about what parents can afford and are willing to sacrifice to move into those pyramids.

Not all homes in McLean are worth over 1 mil. In fact, I think the median cost of a home in McLean is around $650k, while it's $1 mil in Great Falls.
But, are these parents willing to live in a smaller, older, less updated house that cost below $650k in McLean just for the schools?

In theory, Madison's SAT score may continue to decrease as kids in the wealthier northern half will be going to South Lakes instead.

[JEB77]

[quote=tankdude;6960934]
You want to put your kids in an environment conducive to learning and away from the multitude of negative influences around them. If you look at the ethnic ratios at the schools I listed, regardless of income, they generally parallel the general population of the US with the exception of Langley.[quote=tankdude;6960934]

Langley is the least diverse of the Fairfax schools, but the other schools you identify as acceptable do not even come close to mirroring on an ethnic level the general population of the US. For example, the differences between, say, Langley and Madison arise from different income levels, not different ethnic ratios (i.e., Langley is 74% White and 2% Black; Madison is 73% White and 3% Black), etc.

I do not want to debate this ad nauseum (and we are getting pretty close), but your assertions are just wrong.

[tankdude]

[quote=JEB77;6962261][quote=tankdude;6960934]
You want to put your kids in an environment conducive to learning and away from the multitude of negative influences around them. If you look at the ethnic ratios at the schools I listed, regardless of income, they generally parallel the general population of the US with the exception of Langley.

Originally Posted by tankdude

Langley is the least diverse of the Fairfax schools, but the other schools do not even come close to mirroring on an ethnic level the general population of the US. For example, the differences between, say, Langley and Madison arise from different income levels, not different ethnic ratios (i.e., Langley is 74% White and 2% Black; Madison is 73% White and 3% Black), etc.

I do not want to debate this ad nauseum (and we are getting pretty close), but your assertions are just wrong.

What I intended to say, is that the percentage of the majority (whites) generally reflects the population of the US. In year 2008, that was about 68% in the US. Minorities as a whole, obviously making up the difference at 32%.

BTW, McLean, Oakton, and Woodson are all 64% white.

http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/...r/545#students

http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/...r/555#students

http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/...r/597#students

[JEB77]

Originally Posted by tankdude

You want to put your kids in an environment conducive to learning and away from the multitude of negative influences around them. If you look at the ethnic ratios at the schools I listed, regardless of income, they generally parallel the general population of the US with the exception of Langley.

What I intended to say, is that the percentage of the majority (whites) generally reflects the population of the US. In year 2008, that was about 68% in the US. Minorities as a whole, obviously making up the difference at 32%.

BTW, McLean, Oakton, and Woodson are all 64% white.

Student Teacher Ratio McLean High School - McLean, Virginia - VA

Student Teacher Ratio Oakton High School - Vienna, Virginia - VA

Student Teacher Ratio Woodson High School - Fairfax, Virginia - VA

So - my understanding of your position is that the Fairfax system as a whole is problematic because it has a smaller percentage of White students than the general US population, but you'd still send your kid to the five schools (other than TJ) that have at least 64% White students.

Given that the Fairfax system as a whole is strong, and there are at least another 16 schools in the county where test scores exceed the national averages, sometimes by substantial amounts, I find this a bit arbitrary, but you should obviously try and pick the schools you want.