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Marshall students exceeded Madison students on 2008 SATs, and Lake Braddock students scored but one point below Madison. Yet you write off both Marshall and Lake Braddock, where the test scores have been improving, in favor of less diverse Madison, where test scores have declined three years running.
Let's not get too wrapped up around the axle with regard to what 2008 data says. What don't you take the average over 5 years for each school and see what you get. Also, factor in AP success.
Among Madison, Marshall, and LB, I would pick Madison not only because it's a great school, but also because it's located in Vienna which has a bustling main street area. Madison is not on a busy road/urbanish area like Marshall and not in a tucked away suburbia like Burke.
Let's not get too wrapped up around the axle with regard to what 2008 data says. What don't you take the average over 5 years for each school and see what you get. Also, factor in AP success.
Among Madison, Marshall, and LB, I would pick Madison not only because it's a great school, but also because it's located in Vienna which has a bustling main street area. Madison is not on a busy road/urbanish area like Marshall and not in a tucked away suburbia like Burke.
Students probably do prefer high schools such as Madison that are located so close to a McDonald's.
I personally would focus on SAT trends, as I think the students of parents who solicit advice on forums such as this are quite likely to take the SATs. Colleges are surely more interested in SAT performance than SOL accomplishments.
But you are correct that Madison has better SOLs than the other two schools and, according to the greatschools site, apparently a not insignificant number of dissatisfied parents. Perhaps that is to be expected when a school is hyped up to this degree: parents shell out the extra money for the house in the "top district," thinking an educational Nirvana lies in store, only to learn later that it may not quite live up to the billing.
Students probably do prefer high schools such as Madison that are located so close to a McDonald's.
I personally would focus on SAT trends, as I think the students of parents who solicit advice on forums such as this are quite likely to take the SATs. Colleges are surely more interested in SAT performance than SOL accomplishments.
But you are correct that Madison has better SOLs than the other two schools and, according to the greatschools site, apparently a not insignificant number of dissatisfied parents. Perhaps that is to be expected when a school is hyped up to this degree: parents shell out the extra money for the house in the "top district," thinking an educational Nirvana lies in store, only to learn later that it may not quite live up to the billing.
And Marshall HS is up the street from Juh-Juh-Juh-Juh-Jerry's subs. So what?
If you believe what you saw in great schools with regard to the anonymous comments from "parents," then you should also appreciate the 9 out fo 10 ranking that Madison got versus the 7 out of 10 ranking that Marshall got.
Here's some SAT data for you, comparing Marshall with Madison 12th graders, since you seem obsessed with that.
* Madison Asians have a higher SAT average for both Verbal/Math and Verbal/Math/Writing.
* Madison Whites have a higher SAT average for both Verbal/Math and Verbal/Math/Writing.
* Marshall Blacks and Hispanics have a higher SAT average for both Verbal/Math and Verbal/Math/Writing.
* Marshall "other" have a higher SAT average for both Verbal/Math and Verbal/Math/Writing.
* Madison Economically Disadvantaged have a higher SAT average for both Verbal/Math and Verbal/Math/Writing. Madison has more economically disadvantaged test takers compared to Marshall.
* Madison Limited English Proficient have a higher SAT average for both Verbal/Math and Verbal/Math/Writing. Madison has more limited english test takers compared to Marshall.
* Madison Students with disabilities have a higher SAT average for both Verbal/Math and Verbal/Math/Writing. Madison has more disabled test takers compared to Marshall.
* Madison's Total Population has a higher SAT average for both Verbal/Math and Verbal/Math/Writing for 2008, 2007, etc.
Will do; here's a link to the 2008 release issued published by FCPS that shows the three-year trends at the FCPS schools, the downward trend at Madison, the favorable trends at Marshall and Lake Braddock, and the fact that Marshall students outperformed Madison in 2008, and Madison students outperformed Lake Braddock students by only one point. When you consider the fact that both Marshall and Lake Braddock have higher percentages of lower-income students than Madison, and the fact that performance on SATs generally is understood to correlate to income levels, it does tend to raise questions as to why Madison appears to be "punching below its weight."
You are entitled to prefer certain schools, but forgive those of us who don't think the distinctions are quite as dramatic as you suggest.
Will do; here's a link to the 2008 release issued published by FCPS that shows the three-year trends at the FCPS schools, the downward trend at Madison, the favorable trends at Marshall and Lake Braddock, and the fact that Marshall students outperformed Madison in 2008, and Madison students outperformed Lake Braddock students by only one point.
You are entitled to prefer certain schools, but forgive those of us who don't think the distinctions are quite as dramatic as you suggest.
Looking at the data you provided, which I've seen before, Marshall only had a higher score on the math portion during 2008 over that 3 year period. That's it. Nothing really to beat one's chest over, or to pat oneself on the shoulder over.
The data that I provided is much more detailed, as it breaks it down to ethnic groups and students with various economic or disability challenges.
The data that I pointed out shows that white and asian students score higher at Madison, while the black, hispanic, and "other" students score higher at Marshall. Also, the students with various challenge issues also score higher at Madison. This all over at least 3 years also.
Irregardless, the total population of 12th graders at Madison score higher than those at Marshall, with Madison's score improving from 2007 to 2008. Your link doesn't make this distinction with regard to 12 graders. SAT score for a 12 grader matters more for college apps than lower grades.
BTW, correct yourself when you accused me of saying that "the distinctions are quite as dramatic as you suggest."
I only pointed out 5 schools that I would consider, and I never said Marshall was bad or good. I just said I would not consider it. You are the one griping about the exclusion of Marshall from my own personal list.
Looking at the data you provided, which I've seen before, Marshall only had a higher score on the math portion during 2008 over that 3 year period. That's it. Nothing really to beat one's chest over, or to pat oneself on the shoulder over.
The data that I provided is much more detailed, as it breaks it down to ethnic groups and students with various economic or disability challenges.
The data that I pointed out shows that white and asian students score higher at Madison, while the black, hispanic, and "other" students score higher at Marshall. Also, the students with various challenge issues also score higher at Madison. This all over at least 3 years also.
Irregardless, the total population of 12th graders at Madison score higher than those at Marshall, with Madison's score improving from 2007 to 2008. Your link doesn't make this distinction with regard to 12 graders. SAT score for a 12 grader matters more for college apps than lower grades.
BTW, correct yourself when you accused me of saying that "the distinctions are quite as dramatic as you suggest."
I only pointed out 5 schools that I would consider, and I never said Marshall was bad or good. I just said I would not consider it. You are the one griping about the exclusion of Marshall from my own personal list.
On the basis you prefer, Madison 12th graders out-performed Marshall 12th graders on SATs by 10 points; on the basis published by the county in its annual press release, the Class of 2008 at Marshall - continuing an upward trend - out-performed the Class of 2008 at Madison by six points.
These are both fine schools and I think county residents shoud be happy to have their children attend either school. However, given Madison's demographics and the overall affluence of its student population, I would ask why the school appears to be "punching below its weight" on SAT scores compared not only to Marshall (which has a higher percentage of lower-income students), but also to other comparatively affluent schools such as McLean and Oakton.
On the basis you prefer, Madison 12th graders out-performed Marshall 12th graders on SATs by 10 points; on the basis published by the county in its annual press release, the Class of 2008 at Marshall - continuing an upward trend - out-performed the Class of 2008 at Madison by six points.
These are both fine schools and I think county residents shoud be happy to have their children attend either school. However, given Madison's demographics and the overall affluence of its student population, I would ask why the school appears to be "punching below its weight" on SAT scores compared not only to Marshall (which has a higher percentage of lower-income students), but also to other comparatively affluent schools such as McLean and Oakton.
Correction on your statement. The county published SAT data is not on the "Class of 2008," but SAT data taken during the "year 2008" to include all (10th, 11th, & 12th) that took the SAT.
What is clear is this:
Asians and whites do better at Madison and continue to do better year to year. There is no downward trend there.
The 12th grade class as a whole at Madison is doing better year to year also. No downward trend there.
Disadvantaged students to include economic, physical, and limited english students are doing better at Madison compared to Marshall and continue to do better year to year.
The scores from blacks, hispanics, and "other" at Madison is what is bringing the overall score lower. This "phenomenon" is also taking place at Marshall HS too. That is where the "punching below its weight" is coming from, for BOTH schools. And, if you look at my links, you will note that the number of blacks, hispanics, and "other" are similar for 12 grade test takers.
Also, we haven't discussed the variable of how more affluent and smarter students that normally would be going to Madison or Marshall are now going to TJ. I'm willing to bet more Madison neighborhood kids are going to TJ compared to Marshall neighborhood kids.
Also, you can believe what you want from FFX Cty's "press release," but the fact is that Marshall's student/teacher ratio is 12:1 while Madison's is 14:1 and Marshall is supposedly under-enrolled and they want more kids to consider that school. That's the sales pitch there especially since Marshall offers IB only, I think.
The data that I provided you is also from FFX Cty schools, but posted directly by the schools themselves with much more clarity and definition.
Correction on your statement. The county published SAT data is not on the "Class of 2008," but SAT data taken during the "year 2008" to include all (10th, 11th, & 12th) that took the SAT.
What is clear is this:
Asians and whites do better at Madison and continue to do better year to year. There is no downward trend there.
The 12th grade class as a whole at Madison is doing better year to year also. No downward trend there.
Disadvantaged students to include economic, physical, and limited english students are doing better at Madison compared to Marshall and continue to do better year to year.
The scores from blacks, hispanics, and "other" at Madison is what is bringing the overall score lower. This "phenomenon" is also taking place at Marshall HS too. That is where the "punching below its weight" is coming from, for BOTH schools. And, if you look at my links, you will note that the number of blacks, hispanics, and "other" are similar for 12 grade test takers.
Also, we haven't discussed the variable of how more affluent and smarter students that normally would be going to Madison or Marshall are now going to TJ. I'm willing to bet more Madison neighborhood kids are going to TJ compared to Marshall neighborhood kids.
Also, you can believe what you want from FFX Cty's "press release," but the fact is that Marshall's student/teacher ratio is 12:1 while Madison's is 14:1 and Marshall is supposedly under-enrolled and they want more kids to consider that school. That's the sales pitch there especially since Marshall offers IB only, I think.
The data that I provided you is also from FFX Cty schools, but posted directly by the schools themselves with much more clarity and definition.
The county states in its press release that the scores reported are for the Class of 2008 and, consistent with the statistics as reported by the College Board, include all times that individuals who identified themselves as members of the Class of 2008 took the SAT.
That is the reported data that shows a three-year decline in Madison's scores (down 23 points for the Class of 2007 compared to the Class of 2006 and down another five points for the Class of 2008 compared to the Class of 2007) and which, conversely, led FCPS to note, among other things, that, with respect to the Class of 2008, "Marshall and Oakton High Schools had double-digit average score improvements in Mathematics and Writing." Oakton's scores have been comparable to Madison's for several years, so I don't think you can chalk this up to FCPS's looking for a way to hype Marshall's reputation.
FCPS is currently reporting that Madison is 94 students under-capacity, and that Marshall is 90 students under-capacity, so I'm not sure why you are bringing up capacity issues. Are you suggesting that a lower student-to-teacher ratio is a bad thing? In general, one would tend to assume the opposite and to view this as a positive.
Nor am I aware of any "sales pitch" made by FCPS to induce students to attend one school versus the other. Should parents in the Marshall area be holding out for signing bonuses? My understanding is that pupil placements are freely granted to would-be Madison students to attend Marshall (and vice versa).
There are more "Madison neighborhood kids" than "Marshall neighborhood kids," to begin with, since Madison has a substantially larger attendance zone, so it seems reasonable to assume that more "Madison neighborhood kids" attend TJ than "Marshall neighborhood kids." On the other hand, TJ's student body is increasingly Asian, and the neighborhoods that feed into Marshall generally have a higher percentage of Asian students than the neighborhoods that feed into Madison. In addition, there are certainly neighborhoods in the 22182 zip code, for example, that feed into Marshall that are more affluent, and where the parents have higher levels of education, than neighborhoods in the 22180 zip code that feed into Madison. As a result, I think your hypothesis is fairly speculative.
The county states in its press release that the scores reported are for the Class of 2008 and, consistent with the statistics as reported by the College Board, include all times that individuals who identified themselves as members of the Class of 2008 took the SAT.
That is the reported data that shows a three-year decline in Madison's scores (down 23 points for the Class of 2007 compared to the Class of 2006 and down another five points for the Class of 2008 compared to the Class of 2007) and which, conversely, led FCPS to note, among other things, that, with respect to the Class of 2008, "Marshall and Oakton High Schools had double-digit average score improvements in Mathematics and Writing." Oakton's scores have been comparable to Madison's for several years, so I don't think you can chalk this up to FCPS's looking for a way to hype Marshall's reputation.
FCPS is currently reporting that Madison is 94 students under-capacity, and that Marshall is 90 students under-capacity, so I'm not sure why you are bringing up capacity issues. Are you suggesting that a lower student-to-teacher ratio is a bad thing? In general, one would tend to assume the opposite and to view this as a positive.
Nor am I aware of any "sales pitch" made by FCPS to induce students to attend one school versus the other. Should parents in the Marshall area be holding out for signing bonuses? My understanding is that pupil placements are freely granted to would-be Madison students to attend Marshall (and vice versa).
There are more "Madison neighborhood kids" than "Marshall neighborhood kids," to begin with, since Madison has a substantially larger attendance zone, so it seems reasonable to assume that more "Madison neighborhood kids" attend TJ than "Marshall neighborhood kids." On the other hand, TJ's student body is increasingly Asian, and the neighborhoods that feed into Marshall generally have a higher percentage of Asian students than the neighborhoods that feed into Madison. In addition, there are certainly neighborhoods in the 22182 zip code, for example, that feed into Marshall that are more affluent, and where the parents have higher levels of education, than neighborhoods in the 22180 zip code that feed into Madison. As a result, I think your hypothesis is fairly speculative.
Again, I must refer you to the clear and succinct data that I provided that shows which groups at Madison and Marshall are trending up with regard to their SAT scores, and which groups are trending down and thus bringing the school's average down.
If you compare those groups that are trending up between Madison and Marshall, Madison still wins because Madison's average is higher. Those data points are clear and unarguable.
Due to the budget cuts, schools with lower student/teacher ratio will be targeted to get more students. Marshall probably has a lower student/teacher ratio because most kids in the county prefer AP vice IB.
Again, I must refer you to the clear and succinct data that I provided that shows which groups at Madison and Marshall are trending up with regard to their SAT scores, and which groups are trending down and thus bringing the school's average down.
If you compare those groups that are trending up between Madison and Marshall, Madison still wins because Madison's average is higher. Those data points are clear and unarguable.
Due to the budget cuts, schools with lower student/teacher ratio will be targeted to get more students. Marshall probably has a lower student/teacher ratio because most kids in the county prefer AP vice IB.
The data points are what they are - you have focused on data points that reflect superior performance by Madison students in 2007-08 and I looked to the data in the FCPS press release that reflected superior performance by Marshall students in the Class of 2008. All of these data points are as "clear, succinct and unarguable" as the others.
If you do focus on the data that you suggest is the more relevant, here's what the SAT scores would reflect for last year's 12th graders taking the SAT exams in their senior year. Madison stays in the same spot as it is in the other rankings, and Marshall and Lake Braddock switch spots. This is entirely consistent with my position that they are all fine schools with comparatively high-performing students.
1. TJHSST 2214
2. Langley 1861
3. McLean 1803
4. Woodson 1770
5. Oakton 1738
6. Lake Braddock 1717
7. Madison 1711
8. Marshall 1701
9. Robinson 1673
10. Herndon 1671
11. Chantilly 1657
Westfield 1657
13. West Springfield 1648
14. Centreville 1619
South County 1619
16. Fairfax 1596
17. South Lakes 1593
18. Falls Church 1587
19. Lee 1582
20. Stuart 1576
21. Annandale 1553
22. Hayfield 1539
23. West Potomac 1535
24. Edison 1517
NATIONAL AVERAGE 1511
25. Mount Vernon 1494
I have no idea if Marshall will receive more students in the future, through future redistrictings as you suggest, because it currently has a lower teacher-to-student ratio than some other schools. The School Board has said it will examine boundaries on a county-wide basis, but there are other parts of the county where there are far more pressing capacity imbalances to address. It is also possible that FCPS could increase the student-to-teacher ratio at a school by cutting teachers.
There are so many good schools in Fairfax that I think it would be a real shame if parents here adopted an attitude similar to that which now prevails in many parts of Montgomery County - namely, that if a student cannot attend one of the "Three W's" (Whitman, Winston Churchill, or Wooton), he or she should not even attend a county school. There really are a lot of excellent options in this county.
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