Which school pyramids are considered "desirable" in Fairfax County? (Arlington: lawyers, new home)

[tankdude]

Originally Posted by JEB77

The data points are what they are - you have focused on data points that reflect superior performance by Madison students in 2007-08 and I looked to the data in the FCPS press release that reflected superior performance by Marshall students in the Class of 2008. All of these data points are as "clear, succinct and unarguable" as the others.

If you do focus on the data that you suggest is the more relevant, here's what the SAT scores would reflect for last year's 12th graders taking the SAT exams in their senior year. Madison stays in the same spot as it is in the other rankings, and Marshall and Lake Braddock switch spots. This is entirely consistent with my position that they are all fine schools with comparatively high-performing students.

1. TJHSST 2214
2. Langley 1861
3. McLean 1803
4. Woodson 1770
5. Oakton 1738
6. Lake Braddock 1717
7. Madison 1711
8. Marshall 1701
9. Robinson 1673
10. Herndon 1671
11. Chantilly 1657
Westfield 1657
13. West Springfield 1648
14. Centreville 1619
South County 1619
16. Fairfax 1596
17. South Lakes 1593
18. Falls Church 1587
19. Lee 1582
20. Stuart 1576
21. Annandale 1553
22. Hayfield 1539
23. West Potomac 1535
24. Edison 1517
NATIONAL AVERAGE 1511
25. Mount Vernon 1494

I have no idea if Marshall will receive more students in the future, through future redistrictings as you suggest, because it currently has a lower teacher-to-student ratio than some other schools. The School Board has said it will examine boundaries on a county-wide basis, but there are other parts of the county where there are far more pressing capacity imbalances to address. It is also possible that FCPS could increase the student-to-teacher ratio at a school by cutting teachers.

There are so many good schools in Fairfax that I think it would be a real shame if parents here adopted an attitude similar to that which now prevails in many parts of Montgomery County - namely, that if a student cannot attend one of the "Three W's" (Whitman, Winston Churchill, or Wooton), he or she should not even attend a county school. There really are a lot of excellent options in this county.

The data that I presented to you isn't what I called "more relevant." The data that I presented to you shows much more granularity and shows the reason why, as you noted many times, Madison total average scores are trending down while Marshall total scores are trending up. That's because of the black, hispanic, and "other" scores.

As I clearly pointed out, whites and asians at both Madison and Marshall are carrying the load and are bringing the average up for their schools. In fact, there is no "trending down" for whites and asians at Madison at all.

On top of that, disadvantaged students to include physical, economic, and english speaking are doing better at Madison compared to Marshall. Figure that out.

The averages for whites, asians, and all disadvantaged at Madison are better than Marshall.

Also, don't get too upset that I didn't include Marshall in my top 5 lists. This is what is fueling your attempt to convince me otherwise. My list is my list, even if Marshall is a good school.

BTW, there's another "W" school in Montgomery Cty. It's called Walter Johnson.

[Tone509]

Originally Posted by JEB77

If you do focus on the data that you suggest is the more relevant, here's what the SAT scores would reflect for last year's 12th graders taking the SAT exams in their senior year. Madison stays in the same spot as it is in the other rankings, and Marshall and Lake Braddock switch spots. This is entirely consistent with my position that they are all fine schools with comparatively high-performing students.

1. TJHSST 2214
2. Langley 1861
3. McLean 1803
4. Woodson 1770
5. Oakton 1738
6. Lake Braddock 1717
7. Madison 1711
8. Marshall 1701
9. Robinson 1673
10. Herndon 1671
11. Chantilly 1657
Westfield 1657
13. West Springfield 1648
14. Centreville 1619
South County 1619
16. Fairfax 1596
17. South Lakes 1593
18. Falls Church 1587
19. Lee 1582
20. Stuart 1576
21. Annandale 1553
22. Hayfield 1539
23. West Potomac 1535
24. Edison 1517
NATIONAL AVERAGE 1511
25. Mount Vernon 1494

There are so many good schools in Fairfax that I think it would be a real shame if parents here adopted an attitude similar to that which now prevails in many parts of Montgomery County - namely, that if a student cannot attend one of the "Three W's" (Whitman, Winston Churchill, or Wooton), he or she should not even attend a county school. There really are a lot of excellent options in this county.

This data would seem to support my feeling that, with virtually all of the high schools beating the national SAT average, there are no "bad" schools in Fairfax County. Granted, when people pay a premium for their homes, they want to maximize what they get.

Please don't take this response as my taking sides. I'm just saying that I understand where this post is coming from.

[JEB77]

Originally Posted by tankdude

The data that I presented to you isn't what I called "more relevant." The data that I presented to you shows much more granularity and shows the reason why, as you noted many times, Madison total average scores are trending down while Marshall total scores are trending up. That's because of the black, hispanic, and "other" scores.

As I clearly pointed out, whites and asians at both Madison and Marshall are carrying the load and are bringing the average up for their schools. In fact, there is no "trending down" for whites and asians at Madison at all.

On top of that, disadvantaged students to include physical, economic, and english speaking are doing better at Madison compared to Marshall. Figure that out.

The averages for whites, asians, and all disadvantaged at Madison are better than Marshall.

Also, don't get too upset that I didn't include Marshall in my top 5 lists. This is what is fueling your attempt to convince me otherwise. My list is my list, even if Marshall is a good school.

BTW, there's another "W" school in Montgomery Cty. It's called Walter Johnson.

You are repeating yourself on this thread more than I am - lobbing spent shells rather than heavy artillery. Let's let anyone who is still interested look at all the data and reach their own conclusions.

I am not upset that you did not include Marshall or Lake Braddock on your "top 5" list. As you say, your list is your list and yours alone. I do not have a top five list at all and, if I did, you should not presume that I would include Madison, Marshall OR Lake Braddock on it. Different schools can be the best choice for different students and families. Pushing someone taking a job, say, in the Fort Belvoir area on a tight housing budget to do whatever it takes so their chidren can attend one of Langley, McLean, Woodson, Oakton or Madison strikes me as misguided.

There are other "W" schools in Montgomery besides the "three Ws" - Walter Johnson, Watkins Mill and Wheaton. The more status-conscious families in Montgomery - akin to some posters on this forum - focus on Whitman, Winston Churchill and Wooton.

[tankdude]

Originally Posted by JEB77

You are repeating yourself on this thread more than I am - lobbing spent shells rather than heavy artillery. Let's let anyone who is still interested look at all the data and reach their own conclusions.

I am not upset that you did not include Marshall or Lake Braddock on your "top 5" list. As you say, your list is your list and yours alone. I do not have a top five list at all and, if I did, you should not presume that I would include Madison, Marshall OR Lake Braddock on it. Different schools can be the best choice for different students and families. Pushing someone taking a job, say, in the Fort Belvoir area on a tight housing budget to do whatever it takes so their chidren can attend one of Langley, McLean, Woodson, Oakton or Madison strikes me as misguided.

There are other "W" schools in Montgomery besides the "three Ws" - Walter Johnson, Watkins Mill and Wheaton. The more status-conscious families in Montgomery - akin to some posters on this forum - focus on Whitman, Winston Churchill and Wooton.

LOL!

Sorry if my "spent shells" are destroying your weak "trending down" arguments. The data that I present provides the granularity that your data lacks.

If you were not upset about my list, then why are you continuing to pursue this weak PR campaign to prop up Marshall HS over Madison based on very, very general data?

I really don't care which schools are on your list. I never asked nor did I try to debate you on this.

What is misguided is for you to pull a weak example out of you know what about "Ft. Belvoir" when the OP of this thread asked general questions about the top pyramids in FFX Cty!!!!! Please reference the original post to confirm.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/north...ax-county.html

Yes, the status conscious focus on the W's you pointed out. I'm sure the status conscious don't care about Walter Johnson and lump it with Watkins Mill and Wheaton since Walter Johnson is located in an obscure area called Bethesda...an area that pales in comparison to Wootton's Rockville.

[Tone509]

JEB77 and tankdude, I think we can consider this thumb wrestling match a "draw".

I would encourage others to share their own views on this topic.

[rarebucky]

New to this forum and have been reading this thread. My wife and I are looking at potentially purchasing a new home in the Tysons Chase complex in Vienna. Wanted to know your thoughts on the area overall and if we are making a wrong choice by looking in the "Marshall pyramid". We can spend up to $1.5 mm but are not dead set on this complex. We want new. Anyone have better suggestions?

[tankdude]

Originally Posted by rarebucky

New to this forum and have been reading this thread. My wife and I are looking at potentially purchasing a new home in the Tysons Chase complex in Vienna. Wanted to know your thoughts on the area overall and if we are making a wrong choice by looking in the "Marshall pyramid". We can spend up to $1.5 mm but are not dead set on this complex. We want new. Anyone have better suggestions?

I think that area is nice and pretty convenient to everything. It's located in what I think is called "Vienna Woods."

I personally don't have anything against Marshall HS, but this school wouldn't be on the top of my list when looking for homes.

I was on the market recently and based on my research, a lot of newer homes in great neighborhoods remained on the market because they were part of the Marshall or South Lakes district, despite sharp price drops. This includes homes near Tysons Chase called Madrillion Oaks on Woodford Road.

If you're interested, there are small builders here and there in McLean/Vienna area that build a few homes in new cul-de-sacs. One builder is Sekas, but in McLean, they're going for 2+ mil. They have 2 communities in Vienna that are going for 1.5 mil but in the Marshall district.

I do know of a new cul-de-sac that's going up right now with gorgeous homes in the McLean HS district for about 1.5 mil I think. Let me know if you're interested in learning more.

[JEB77]

Originally Posted by rarebucky

New to this forum and have been reading this thread. My wife and I are looking at potentially purchasing a new home in the Tysons Chase complex in Vienna. Wanted to know your thoughts on the area overall and if we are making a wrong choice by looking in the "Marshall pyramid". We can spend up to $1.5 mm but are not dead set on this complex. We want new. Anyone have better suggestions?

My recollection is that the lots in Tysons Chase are relatively small for the size of the houses. A lot of homebuyers in the Tysons/Vienna area want larger yards for their kids to play in, particularly when they are buying a big house, so that may have led some of the houses both at Tysons Chase or the Madrillion development to remain on the market for a while.

Speaking from personal experience, I don't think you'd be making a mistake - either economically or in terms of your children's education - to purchase a home in the Marshall pyramid. I think the pyramid for Tysons Chase is Stenwood/Kilmer/Marshall. This is a very strong pyramid and, if you spend time in these neighborhoods, you will get many postive reports from parents.

Marshall shares a long boundary with Madison and there are other neighborhoods (not Tysons Chase) where the houses on either side of the boundary are very similar and sell for comparable prices. I have seen no evidence that the houses in the Marshall sides of these neighborhoods are either discounted compared to the houses in the Madison district or remain on the market longer. Also, if you check the records for Dunn Loring Woods, which is an older neighborhood in the Marshall district, you'll find the properties there turn over about as quickly as the similar, older properties in Vienna Woods in the Madison district.

Marshall historically did not enjoy as strong an academic reputation as some of the neighboring schools, particularly McLean and Madison, and it continues to serve a more diverse student population than McLean and Madison. As the school's enrollment has expanded with the construction of new neighborhoods, primarily off Gallows Road and also in North Vienna near Wolf Trap, however, test scores have improved. Depending on how the scores are calculated, last year's graduating class's SAT scores were the sixth highest out of the county's 25 high schools (not as high as McLean but higher than Madison). Even with the growth in enrollment, however, it is one of the smaller high schools in the county (only Falls Church is smaller), which many consider a definite strength of the school. Marshall was also recognized in the latest US News & World Report rankings of the nation's top high schools.

Some people do not like the fact that Marshall has an IB program rather than an AP program, on the theory that colleges are more likely to grant credit to AP courses and test results than to IB classes. You should definitely look into the differences between these two programs and make your own assessment. If you are comfortable with the IB program, you should know that Marshall's IB program is the top-ranked IB program in Virginia. It also attracts students from other Fairfax schools with AP programs: currently, there are at least 100 students who are attending Marshall rather than their assigned AP schools (approximately 35 students from the Madison attendance area, 24 from Falls Church, 23 from Langley, 17 from McLean, and a handful from other school). The principal is energetic and on top of things, and there are many young, enthusiastic teachers there as well (who presumably will stay there even if the principal leaves or is transferred).

Having said all this, $1.5 million will give you plenty of options in the current housing market and, if you are specifically looking at the Vienna/Tysons area, you may also want to look in the McLean and Madison districts. In general, particularly given its greater proximity to DC, newer single family houses in the McLean district below $1.5 million will be smaller compared to Tysons Chase. I've heard only good things about McLean High. McLean actually has a somewhat more diverse student population than Madison, and occasionally someone will ask whether there is a gang problem at the school (just as such questions are occasionally raised with respect to Marshall). [With respect to the less diverse schools, such as Madison and Langley, the question is never whether there is a "gang problem," but instead whether there is a "drug problem." Take all of this with the appropriate grain of salt, and stay on top of your own kids!]

There are also a lot of new houses being built in the Town of Vienna, and many are new "Arts & Crafts" style houses under $1.5 million. There is a separate thread that DunnLauren started where Denton56 explained all the reasons why she loves the Town of Vienna. Compared to Tysons Chase, the Town of Vienna has much more of a "small town" atmosphere. The main risk there that I can see is that some of the older houses in the town are really starting to show their age, and one can't assume that new properties will replace all of them. Outside the Town of Vienna, there's at least one new Sekas development off Beulah Road (in the Wolftrap/Kilmer/Madison district) where the homes are around $1.5 million and the lots, while not huge, are bigger than the lots in the Tysons Chase development. Tankdude suggests that this development is in the Marshall district, but he or she is wrong. If you do buy in the Madison district, it warrants as much due diligence as your inquiry about the "Marshall pyramid" - I will elaborate in a PM if you are interested. There are also a number of larger homes being built further north off of Beulah Road, but in the Marshall district, in the $1.6-2.0 million range. One is a Sekas development; the other is called Maymont and is a Basheer & Edgemoor development.

The bottom line is that I don't think you should be concerned at all with the "Marshall pyramid" for Tysons Chase, but you will have many other attractive options as well.

[JEB77]

Originally Posted by tankdude

I think that area is nice and pretty convenient to everything. It's located in what I think is called "Vienna Woods."

I personally don't have anything against Marshall HS, but this school wouldn't be on the top of my list when looking for homes.

I was on the market recently and based on my research, a lot of newer homes in great neighborhoods remained on the market because they were part of the Marshall or South Lakes district, despite sharp price drops. This includes homes near Tysons Chase called Madrillion Oaks on Woodford Road.

If you're interested, there are small builders here and there in McLean/Vienna area that build a few homes in new cul-de-sacs. One builder is Sekas, but in McLean, they're going for 2+ mil. They have 2 communities in Vienna that are going for 1.5 mil but in the Marshall district.

I do know of a new cul-de-sac that's going up right now with gorgeous homes in the McLean HS district for about 1.5 mil I think. Let me know if you're interested in learning more.

Who considers Tysons Chase to be part of Vienna Woods? Never heard this before. Vienna Woods is a neighborhood in the Town of Vienna, and Tysons Chase is not in the town. And, Sekas has two new developments in Vienna - one (Francis Young) is in the Madison district and the other (Thistle Ridge) is in the Marshall district.

Hope you at least got a few of your facts right before you bought in McLean. You don't seem to know Vienna very well.

[tankdude]

Originally Posted by JEB77

Who considers Tysons Chase to be part of Vienna Woods? Never heard this before. Vienna Woods is a neighborhood in the Town of Vienna, and Tysons Chase is not in the town. And, Sekas has two new developments in Vienna - one (Francis Young) is in the Madison district and the other (Thistle Ridge) is in the Marshall district.

Hope you at least got a few of your facts right before you bought in McLean. You don't seem to know Vienna very well.

Who said I bought in McLean?

I love me some Marshall HS. They're going to be better than TJ!