10% pay cut to go from contractor to govie? (Reston: calculating, salary)

[ChristineVA]

Originally Posted by nyc2020

working for the federal government.....means your job will be secure during any kind of economic downturn. your performance may be average at best or subpar and you don't have to worry about getting fired. as you reach your 50s and 60s you don't have to look around to see if you have peers in your age range at your level working in your division or company. for some people they can actually earn more as a federal employee than the private sector. there's teleworking, compressed schedules. health insurance. especially if you plan on retiring before you qualify for medicare.

While, overall, the bolded is true. A government employee can be fired and there are managers who do this. Our agency regularly fires people--more than we sometimes realize (but you will find out the stats as a manager if you get involved in this). You can't just do the firing in a day, but if you document poor performance and monitor the employee, it happens. It should happen far more than it does, but there is no guarantee of protection for a subpar employee.

[jbakerman]

Originally Posted by ChristineVA

I was a government contractor for 20 years and was lucky enough to be with one company for 15 of those years. Prior to that I was with 3 companies in 5 years.

I took a lateral into the government when the opportunity arose. It's been a great 8 years for me. I went up two grades and have been HIGHLY involved in developing policies and running things the way I want. I love it. It's the hardest job I've ever had and some days the "mill" wears me down. I just can't ever imagine going back to where I was unless it was as a retired person who didn't depend on the job or require so much investment personally on my part. The odd thing is, many of the contractors I work with, really are nervous about their jobs. Not that they will lose them but they are tired of having to change companies with every new award. At least once a week I get asked to help them find a government job.

Enjoyed reading this. I'm an attorney with a federal agency for almost 11 years now. For a long time I answered questions from friends and family about jumping into private practice and I'd explain that I just wasn't interested in that situation. That it was unique to represent the government, the agency mission, and the direct impact that I had on specific work, and quite frankly, that I didn't have to work insane hours so that a partner could pocket far more money.

My wife has been a fed for 7 years now, and was a contractor with the same agency for 6 years before that. 4 companies/contracts in 6 years will make anyone question their sanity. Our classic contractor craziness situation was that during our honeymoon, we got messages at our home that she was let go from one company b/c they lost their contract, and then two days later, she was hired by the new company.

[stpickrell]

I'm in IT operations, so most of what I do is farmed out to contractors anyway.

I'm under the impression that unless you're fresh out of college or a vet, it's pointless to apply, or at least since the late 2000s.

[Bigfoot424]

Originally Posted by Back to NE

I don't disagree with anything on this post so I don't know what your issue is. But you are saying if you weren't a Fed, you wouldn't work as a Fed contractor. So would you work retail for $10 an hour instead? Whatever, that's your choice.

But wait, you say correctly that contracting firms win more slots than they have qualified people to fill them. So wouldn't this mean decent workers can get placed by them at will (it does for me)? Maybe you aren't a decent worker then.

Wow. You like to read things that aren't there don't you? I was a govt contractor for a few years before going FTE at another agency. I took a pay cut but picked up added job security. I saw several people get escorted from the agency where I was a contractor and when I found out why I knew staying in the contracting world was not for me. I enjoyed it and it was a good job but don't pretend it trumps being a govt employee. I went through one name change when the contract came up for bid and had to hold my breath until I learned I was being retained by the new company. No thanks on that.

[Bigfoot424]

Originally Posted by nyc2020

working for the federal government.....means your job will be secure during any kind of economic downturn. your performance may be average at best or subpar and you don't have to worry about getting fired. as you reach your 50s and 60s you don't have to look around to see if you have peers in your age range at your level working in your division or company. for some people they can actually earn more as a federal employee than the private sector. there's teleworking, compressed schedules. health insurance. especially if you plan on retiring before you qualify for medicare.

Not exactly true. People in the fed govt can and do get fired. I've seen it.

"A common misperception is that federal, state and local government employees can't be fired from their jobs despite poor performance or misconduct. This is untrue. According to the United States Merit Systems Protection Board, a federal agency that oversees appeals filed by fired civil servants, the federal government terminated almost 12,000 federal employees in 2009. Since government employees, as compared to private sector employees, are vested with additional constitutional procedural rights before they may be terminated, firing a civil servant is more difficult and takes more time.................

Can You Get Fired From Civil Service Jobs? | Chron.com

[Gzagenius]

Thanks for the great discussion, everyone. I realize that most of IT has been farmed out to contractors, but I'm not an IT person. I think one aspect that I've overlooked is the training opportunities that I can have as a federal employee. I know it depends on the agency and manager, but there are many training opportunities that I can get as a federal employee that I wouldn't have as a contractor (without a catch).

[Bigfoot424]

Originally Posted by Bigfoot424

Not exactly true. People in the fed govt can and do get fired. I've seen it.

"A common misperception is that federal, state and local government employees can't be fired from their jobs despite poor performance or misconduct. This is untrue. According to the United States Merit Systems Protection Board, a federal agency that oversees appeals filed by fired civil servants, the federal government terminated almost 12,000 federal employees in 2009. Since government employees, as compared to private sector employees, are vested with additional constitutional procedural rights before they may be terminated, firing a civil servant is more difficult and takes more time.................

Can You Get Fired From Civil Service Jobs? | Chron.com

There is actually a new article in today's washingtonpost.com (federal page) on this same issue regarding feds being fired. The number might surprise you. I believe something along the line of over 70 thou between 2000 and 2014 if I recall correctly.

[ChristineVA]

With regard to the firings--I actually think it is something they sort of keep hush-hush internally. In my office, it happens but it isn't discussed. Since 2012 I have been involved in two instances of this. I will say, it is a manager's worst nightmare which is why it probably doesn't happen more often.

Imagine having a problem employee and initiating removal actions only to have that process take 1-3 years to accomplish. It makes for a very stressful work environment and all of the paperwork, burden of proof, and counseling occurs with the manager. The employee is protected every step of the way; however, if they are truly a poor performer or behavior problem the proof will be there and they can't hide forever.

[Carlingtonian]

Originally Posted by ChristineVA

With regard to the firings--I actually think it is something they sort of keep hush-hush internally. In my office, it happens but it isn't discussed. Since 2012 I have been involved in two instances of this. I will say, it is a manager's worst nightmare which is why it probably doesn't happen more often.

Imagine having a problem employee and initiating removal actions only to have that process take 1-3 years to accomplish. It makes for a very stressful work environment and all of the paperwork, burden of proof, and counseling occurs with the manager. The employee is protected every step of the way; however, if they are truly a poor performer or behavior problem the proof will be there and they can't hide forever.

This is my experience as well.

There's a grain of truth to the perception about Feds being hard to fire: If you show up when you're supposed to, do the job (even just so-so), and don't run naked through the building, throw office supplies at your coworkers, or have the ISIS flag as your screen-saver, it's hard to fire you. However, it's not impossible--particularly for conduct problems (versus performance).

And I think that's as it should be. Firing someone should be hard but not impossible. In the private sector, the ability of employers in most states to fire you ostensibly for no reason at all I think goes too far, given the major impact it will have on the employee.

CAVEAT: This is true only for competitive Civil Service positions in the Executive Branch. My understanding is that those in Excepted Service jobs (all of the Intel Community plus a huge chunk of DHS, among others--along with jobs in all Legislative Branch agencies, such as the Library of Congress and the Architect of the Capitol) can be fired any time. This is the main reason many of us in Civil Service will never take an Excepted Service job. (I don't think I'm likely to be fired, but they might use that implied possibility as leverage to make me work on the weekend.)

[lqda4]

^ while that might be true on paper but from my own experience it's not. I left my previous job in DCIPS because I got sick of some dead weights around me. Perhaps it was mainly the supervisor's do-nothing attitude and/or the spineless HR. Sometimes change needs to happen all the way at the top...