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Old 04-30-2019, 07:40 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,775 posts, read 10,677,612 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adriftinthebay View Post
The idea that people who can't afford to live in an area should get a pass to live in overcrowded tenements or duplexes is a strange one. Worse still is the idea that Government should somehow intervene (more so than it already does) by guaranteeing people homes. What gets lost in the conversation is the individual -- people make choices for themselves and do not need to be incentivized by the government to overcrowd. There are few Hispanic families in Fredericksburg as of now, maybe that will change or maybe that won't but that's what you have to do to live in the area these days on a shoestring budget. Or you can move to a new city that's struggling, like Baltimore, and build it up -- that's the American way.

1. I am not sure we want more people commuting from FBurg than necessary, with all the costs to society of those commutes

2. When you add commuting costs, it may not look as cheap

3. Many people in Arlington and Alexandria do not want their communities to exclude people at the bottom of the income ladder.

Again, I don't think overcrowding is the answer. I think housing production is, both subsidized and market.
But meanwhile I don't want people to become homeless.
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Old 04-30-2019, 07:45 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,775 posts, read 10,677,612 times
Reputation: 2498
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD View Post

At the turn of the 20th century, there was a big push to put an end to overcrowded housing because people understood that they were fire hazards and the cause of illnesses spreading. Yet here we are in the 21st century facing this problem yet again. IMO, the reason nothing is being done about it now is due to so-called political correctness which paralyzes those in charge from tackling this problem.
I grew up in Brooklyn NY.

At the turn of the century the tenements of the Lower East Side were massively overcrowded, with much more dangerous and less healthful conditions than you will find anywhere in NoVa today.

The City built a massive transit system to make it possible for people to commute easily from further away. I grew up a few blocks from one of those lines, an elevated train built in 1919 or so.

In response, developers built buildings close to those lines. While I lived in a newer building, the building next door was 1920s vintage. It was a large four story walk up, with fire escapes. It was built in what had been a neighborhood of single family homes. Most people in NoVa today would call it a slum building, and fight it. But it provided much better conditions for people escaping the Lower East Side. And the City of New York ignored anyone who opposed things like that.

NYC also began to build public housing projects in that period.
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Old 04-30-2019, 07:56 AM
 
166 posts, read 70,222 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
1. I am not sure we want more people commuting from FBurg than necessary, with all the costs to society of those commutes

2. When you add commuting costs, it may not look as cheap

3. Many people in Arlington and Alexandria do not want their communities to exclude people at the bottom of the income ladder.

Again, I don't think overcrowding is the answer. I think housing production is, both subsidized and market.
But meanwhile I don't want people to become homeless.
Baltimore City (40 miles away) alone could infill an additional 500k people. Why are we not encouraging more immigrants to relocate to struggling cities and help build them back up? As a bonus they get to be a part of the fabric of a re-emerging city -- which can build wealth for their families and this country. That is the American way.
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Old 04-30-2019, 07:58 AM
 
Location: alexandria, VA
9,180 posts, read 4,272,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adriftinthebay View Post
Baltimore City alone could infill an additional 500k people. Why are we not encouraging more immigrants to relocate to struggling cities and help build them back up? As a bonus they get to become a part of the fabric of a revitalized city and start building wealth. That is the American way.
Baltimore would benefit from an influx of ambitious hard working immigrants.
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Old 04-30-2019, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Northern Virginia
675 posts, read 230,220 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
3. Many people in Arlington and Alexandria do not want their communities to exclude people at the bottom of the income ladder.
But they dont want to see them live next door either. Arlington’s progressivism ends at the front yard or maybe more appropriately the next main road.

The reality is of course that someone needs to do the yard work, flip burgers and clean the offices, and those folks need to live somewhere. That somewhere should just be a good distance away. Arlington’s conceit might be that this somewhere else being still in Arlington County is morally superior because at least you pay local taxes to support them and the services they require...even if youd rather not encounter them walking down your street.
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Old 04-30-2019, 12:10 PM
 
12,871 posts, read 6,170,071 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
I grew up in Brooklyn NY.

At the turn of the century the tenements of the Lower East Side were massively overcrowded, with much more dangerous and less healthful conditions than you will find anywhere in NoVa today.

The City built a massive transit system to make it possible for people to commute easily from further away. I grew up a few blocks from one of those lines, an elevated train built in 1919 or so.

In response, developers built buildings close to those lines. While I lived in a newer building, the building next door was 1920s vintage. It was a large four story walk up, with fire escapes. It was built in what had been a neighborhood of single family homes. Most people in NoVa today would call it a slum building, and fight it. But it provided much better conditions for people escaping the Lower East Side. And the City of New York ignored anyone who opposed things like that.

NYC also began to build public housing projects in that period.
I know all about the tenements in the LES. Thanks anyway.

How do you know what conditions are like the the flophouses? Have you toured several of them?

I once talked to an LEO in LoCo and she told me what the flophouses in Sterling Park were like. In particular, she mentioned one that had 16 people living what she called deplorable conditions. So, don't pretend that the flophouses are NOT "much more dangerous and [have] less healthful conditions". For example, did you know many of those houses in Sterling Park have just one bathroom? And that the backyards of such houses serve as the second bathroom?

Many of those neighborhoods you mention in NYC that are near subway lines are now often the ones that have seen property values skyrocket. You probably have noticed that this happens in NoVA, too.

As for projects---back in the day they were built for low income people such as civil servants. They weren't expected to be permanent homes. The expectation was that the family income would rise and the family would move on. Today, that's not the case. They've become permanent homes for many.

Would you like it if a housing project was built in your neighborhood? Somehow I don't think so.

Again, if the only way a person could live in a neighborhood is to live in an overcrowded home, then s/he can't afford to live there. For example, the only way I could live in an apartment on 5th Avenue that overlooks Central Park would be to invite several other people to live with me. That tells me right there that I can't afford it. Plus, I would never even try to do something like that.

Overcrowded housing puts more vehicles on already burdened local roads. Plus, it causes overcrowding in schools. Due to flophouses, school systems can't even come up with a good estimate as to how many kids will be attending local schools. In some areas, for example, in MoCo, they don't even have room to build much needed schools. WaPo recently discussed that in an article.
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Old 05-01-2019, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC
2,839 posts, read 1,432,345 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veritas Vincit View Post
But they dont want to see them live next door either. Arlington’s progressivism ends at the front yard or maybe more appropriately the next main road.

The reality is of course that someone needs to do the yard work, flip burgers and clean the offices, and those folks need to live somewhere. That somewhere should just be a good distance away. Arlington’s conceit might be that this somewhere else being still in Arlington County is morally superior because at least you pay local taxes to support them and the services they require...even if youd rather not encounter them walking down your street.
This is a major problem that I've seen in Arlington the last few years. They're kicking out the lower income folks who are the blue collared workers who service much of the richer upper class, and now these people are getting displaced, which is causing prices to rise drastically for simpler things in Arlington.
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Old 05-01-2019, 09:05 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,775 posts, read 10,677,612 times
Reputation: 2498
Quote:
Originally Posted by r small View Post
Baltimore would benefit from an influx of ambitious hard working immigrants.
Many immigrants have moved to rust belt communities. But many have jobs here or their family and contacts are here. I don't think removing them from this region is a solution.
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Old 05-01-2019, 09:06 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,775 posts, read 10,677,612 times
Reputation: 2498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veritas Vincit View Post
But they dont want to see them live next door either. Arlington’s progressivism ends at the front yard or maybe more appropriately the next main road.

There are some people like that, but I think you would be surprised at how many people in Arlington and in Alexandria are okay with affordable housing next door, or even in the same building.
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Old 05-01-2019, 09:15 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,775 posts, read 10,677,612 times
Reputation: 2498
I know all about the tenements in the LES. Thanks anyway.

How do you know what conditions are like the the flophouses? Have you toured several of them?


I toured one. Long story.

I once talked to an LEO in LoCo and she told me what the flophouses in Sterling Park were like. In particular, she mentioned one that had 16 people living what she called deplorable conditions. So, don't pretend that the flophouses are NOT "much more dangerous and [have] less healthful conditions". For example, did you know many of those houses in Sterling Park have just one bathroom? And that the backyards of such houses serve as the second bathroom?


The ones in NYC sometimes did not have indoor toilets, or facilities for bathing. Even later they often did not have hot water. Ventilation was often by a tiny air shaft, filled with garbage. I doubt very much any place in Sterling Park resembled the worse places on the LES in 1905.

Many of those neighborhoods you mention in NYC that are near subway lines are now often the ones that have seen property values skyrocket. You probably have noticed that this happens in NoVA, too.


Like a hundred years later. And many still have not gentrified. In any case, thats beside the point. You want to respond to tight housing by moving people further away, you need to make it possible for them to commute.


As for projects---back in the day they were built for low income people such as civil servants. They weren't expected to be permanent homes. The expectation was that the family income would rise and the family would move on. Today, that's not the case. They've become permanent homes for many.

And many do move on from them. And certainly many move on from flophouses. The point is, public housing was part of the response to overcrowding at the turn of the century, a response you brought up.

Would you like it if a housing project was built in your neighborhood? Somehow I don't think so.

I don't want to go into too much detail on my location, but there actually is a public housing project (old fashioned low income kind, but small, because Alexandria) walking distance from my home. I am fine with it.



Again, if the only way a person could live in a neighborhood is to live in an overcrowded home, then s/he can't afford to live there. For example, the only way I could live in an apartment on 5th Avenue that overlooks Central Park would be to invite several other people to live with me. That tells me right there that I can't afford it. Plus, I would never even try to do something like that.


We are not talking about overlooking central park. We are talking about decent sanitary housing close to jobs. Somewhere in Arlington or Alexandria.


Overcrowded housing puts more vehicles on already burdened local roads.

Our failure to sufficienly adopt policies encouraging multimodalism do that.

Plus, it causes overcrowding in schools. Due to flophouses, school systems can't even come up with a good estimate as to how many kids will be attending local schools. In some areas, for example, in MoCo, they don't even have room to build much needed schools. WaPo recently discussed that in an article.


There is room for new schools in every jurisdiction, if we are willing to build schools up, urban style. Alexandria recently converted an empty office building into a 5 story school.
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