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Old 02-22-2013, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
eh. I suppose.

Historically though, SF was heavily northern in its settlement, IIUC, and its accent reflects that. Portland Oregon was named for Portland Maine (And was almost named Boston) though rural Oregon had a lot of midland settlement. Inland california and southern calif had more mixed settlement I think. The greater Mormon belt was pretty solidly "yankee" IIUC. There have of course been waves of subsequent migration, but other than the movement from Texas into new mexico in the latter 20th century, Im not sure any of them transformed the regional character to become more southern.
Actually, many of the Bear Flaggers who founded San Francisco in what was Yerba Buena were Southerners. They were joined shortly after by Italians, Irish and other immigrants.

Don't forget the great Okie/Arkie invasion during the dust bowl.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
My point is that "northeasternness" is not defined by late 19th c immigration. Thats only one element in the history and character of the northeast, one that did not impact all parts of the northeast equally.
I don't think it's the defining element. I do, however, believe that it is a defining element.

It's the same way agrarian life and slavery are defining characteristics of the American South. Yet there are some areas of the South that were more commerce-centered and industrial (e.g., New Orleans and Birmingham) and some areas that had little if any slaves (and hence very few African Americans). I think we have to recognize that all regions of the country are heterogeneous and that the general characteristics of each region won't apply to everyone and everywhere within it.

That said, I think it's undeniable that certain immigrant groups have played a large role in shaping the culture of the Northeast in a way that's distinguishable from other areas of the country. That doesn't mean that being Italian or Irish is a pre-requisite for being northern. It's really no different than pointing out that a place is "southern" because it has a lot of Protestants even though it's obvious that not everyone in the South is a Protestant.

I mean, do the demographic differences among different regions count for nothing at all? If we could go back and time and put more heavy industry in the South, do you think there's any doubt that the demographics would look very different, and that the South would consequently have a radically different culture?
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
When I lived in Jacksonville,Fl they definitely called folks from Ohio and Illinois northerners or yankees.

Folks from louisville, they werent quite sure.
IL and OH were solid union. KY was a border state so like MO went both ways, particularly because as I mentioned before, many of the settlers were from here in VA.
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Old 02-22-2013, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
eh. I suppose.

Historically though, SF was heavily northern in its settlement, IIUC, and its accent reflects that. Portland Oregon was named for Portland Maine (And was almost named Boston) though rural Oregon had a lot of midland settlement. Inland california and southern calif had more mixed settlement I think. The greater Mormon belt was pretty solidly "yankee" IIUC. There have of course been waves of subsequent migration, but other than the movement from Texas into new mexico in the latter 20th century, Im not sure any of them transformed the regional character to become more southern.
Yeah, but people have been out West so long that they've developed their own distinct culture from the Northeast, Midwest and South (a lot of people who moved to Southern California came from former slave holding territories). I mean, I don't consider myself a southerner because my father was from the South, and that's just one generation removed. If I moved to Northern Virginia, would I in effect be bringing southern culture with me?
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:10 PM
 
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Yeah, but people have been out West so long that they've developed their own distinct culture from the Northeast, Midwest and South (a lot of people who moved to Southern California came from former slave holding territories). I mean, I don't consider myself a southerner because my father was from the South, and that's just one generation removed. If I moved to Northern Virginia, would I in effect be bringing southern culture with me?
Southern CA settled later than Northern CA and by then people were coming in from all over so there was no unified migrant culture beyond pan-American. I'd say more Mid-westerners than Southerners (except for the aforementioned Okies and Arkies during the 30s). Most of its population arrived during and after WWII. I see a lot of "metling pot" similarities between Southern CA and NoVA.

Last edited by CAVA1990; 02-22-2013 at 04:47 PM..
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:19 PM
 
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I've never heard anyone refer to someone from California, Nevada, Oregon or Washington as a "northerner." They were called "Westerners" or "West Coasters" (in the case of CA, OR, and WA). But never "northerner."

People from the Midwest are a bit different. On the EC, I think most people would call them "Midwesterners." But in the South, they may call them northern.
I think Southerners still consider Califonians as "Yankees" since we entered the Union as a free state and remained loyal during the war.

Here's a clue you're dealing with a Midwesterner (or at least one from Chicago): New York is referred to as "out East" while to a Westerner it's "back East".

Last edited by CAVA1990; 02-22-2013 at 04:45 PM..
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Old 02-22-2013, 06:23 PM
 
Location: NoVa
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I used to live in a more southern part of Virginia, near the Carolina line, and it was quite the bit more 'southern.'

I guess this would be about a three hour road trip from NoVa.
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Old 02-22-2013, 06:27 PM
 
Location: Alexandria, VA
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I agree that Northern Virginia isn't "southern" in the generally accepted (I don't want to say stereotype, but can't think of another word for it).
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:04 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Originally Posted by CAVA1990 View Post
I think Southerners still consider Califonians as "Yankees" since we entered the Union as a free state and remained loyal during the war.
I'm not so sure about that. I think most people, including southerners, think of the Civil War in terms of North vs. South. It has been dubbed "the War of Northern Aggression" after all. So that excludes states that remained part of the Union but were not northern such as West Virginia, Kentucky, Iowa, Kansas, Missouri (flip flopper), Oregon and California.

If you walked into a Piggly Wiggly, Winn Dixie or Food Lion in Florence, South Carolina and quizzed people on the Civil War, I'd bet you a month's rent that 99 percent of them wouldn't even know that California and Oregon were states in 1861. Most people are clueless about Missouri's status during the Civil War because most history books focus almost exclusively on the eastern theater. The focus is usually on Fort Sumter, Gettysburg, Antietam, Yorktown, Appammattox Courthouse, Vicksburg, etc. I doubt many people would draw any connection between California and the Civil War for that reason.
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:46 PM
 
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
If you walked into a Piggly Wiggly, Winn Dixie or Food Lion in Florence, South Carolina and quizzed people on the Civil War, I'd bet you a month's rent that 99 percent of them wouldn't even know that California and Oregon were states in 1861. Most people are clueless about Missouri's status during the Civil War because most history books focus almost exclusively on the eastern theater. The focus is usually on Fort Sumter, Gettysburg, Antietam, Yorktown, Appammattox Courthouse, Vicksburg, etc. I doubt many people would draw any connection between California and the Civil War for that reason.
They wouldn't associate the beginning of the end of school segregation with CA native son Earl Warren?
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