D.C. Metro Area Housing Data; Please Criticize (Fairfax: condo, transfer)

[saganista]

Originally Posted by spidercharm

Not so sure about that. I would avoid some schools in Vienna - Marshall Road & Cunningham for example. Same is true for Falls Church and Herndon - some good, others not really.

I'm sure you would have your own reasons for avoiding Marshall Road or Cunningham Park. I'm not sure that others would necessarily view the situation in the same light.

Marshall Road serves children from the SW quadrant of Vienna, principally from Vienna Woods, which is a large, stable middle and upper-middle class neighborhood, along with children from among the populations that live for now in the townhouses, condos, and apartments just north and south of the Vienna Metro station. If you wanted your children to be exposed only to children from upper class families living in seven-figure homes, Marshall Road would not be the school for you.

Cunningham Park serves children from the east side of Vienna Woods, but also from the large Vienna Park apartment complex to the south which is predominantly moderate- and middle-income Hispanic. The apartments provide virtually all of the school's ESL and subsidized lunch students. The other half of the CPES district consists of the high-six and seven-figure homes of McHenry Heights, Oakdale Park, Oak Ridge, Wedderburn, and Onondio, along with a strip of distinctly upper-middle class homes in Stonewall Manor and Dunn Loring Woods. CPES as a whole then is any northside Vienna elementary school with the apartment complex added to its district. If one objects to a significant presence of Hispanic children (and/or Asians, Indo-Pakistanis, Persians, and Arabs), Cunningham Park might not be a good choice. But remembering that Fairfax County schools as a whole produce official communications in five languages (English, Spanish, Vietnamese, Korean, and Urdu), it might be that the region itself is the real source of one's problem.

In any case, both Cunningham Park and Marshall Road are well-run, well-funded Fairfax County schools staffed by very good to excellent teachers and administrators all dedicated to teaching the same curriculum with the same tools and opportunities that are available in other County schools. Such differences as there are arise from the relative backgrounds of the various students who attend them. If such diversity is problematic, one would need to have a lot of money, and then pick and choose a school and neighborhood very carefully.

As for Falls Church, all of the Falls Church City Public Schools (there are just the four of them) are rated very highly...more highly than various of the nearby Fairfax County schools, but not so much more highly than various of the nearby Arlington County schools.

Herndon will fall into the same situation as Cunningham Park. Herndon is any other affluent NoVa suburb -- beautiful neighborhoods, great parks and other amenities -- but with a signficantly larger than average moderate- and middle-income Hispanic population. Herndon's schools are not more run-down or more poorly staffed or equipped or supported because of the presence in the system of Hispanic 8-year olds. Those who are averse to the presence of Hispanic 8-year olds might be well advised to live elsewhere, but this would not necessarily be any sort of comment on the quality of Herndon's schools.

[saganista]

Originally Posted by juniperbleu

Just a note, government agencies have been authorized to up this amount to about $230/month. Each one might differ (at least, this year), because they weren't anticipating such a big increase when they created their budget, but they should all at least be higher than $120.

The increased authority was part of the Recovery Act. It's temporary as enacted and would expire at the end of 2010 unless extended, but the new $230 limit should go into effect at most agencies as of May 1. You'd have to resubmit the usual Transit Benefit form if you were eligible for more than the old $120.

[JEB77]

Originally Posted by saganista

I could have written that better. The City of Falls Church and the Town of Vienna are legally incorporated areas with defined boudaries and their own local governments, which isn't true in most places. In Falls Church in particular, there are significant differences between living within the city limits and not, the school system being one of them. The City itself is quite small (two square miles) while the area that has a Falls Church mailing address is quite large, so it's important to know where you actually are. Some of the rather many nice things that might be said about Falls Church City are not so true in some mailing address areas.

To a lesser degree the same is true re the Town of Vienna (to which you will pay taxes if you live in it) and the large Vienna mailing address areas that surround it which, in the case of 22182, extend from Dunn Loring to the Reston Zoo. To a greater degree than is the case with Faux Falls Church, the areas that make up Faux Vienna are likely to be quite nice, but in terms of day to day living, some have nothing to do with Vienna at all. It would be important to those looking at the area to know that these differences exist, and to find out which side of which line they might actually be living on.


Westbriar ES is in the town proper and Wolftrap ES fronts the town line. Colvin Run ES does have a Vienna mailing address, but it is in the Langley HS pyramid, not James Madison, again highlighting the fact that 22180 is one thing, but 22181 and 22182 may be something else again. It's too bad in a sense that the Post Office decided to use the same generic name for all three zip codes. That has helped to confuse and mislead a lot of people over the years.


You didn't mention Luther Jackson MS or South Lakes HS which some see as being less desirable and whose districts the unsuspecting could end up living in unless they did their Faux Vienna homework. I would think also that many would see the same difference between McLean HS and Marshall HS that you don't see there but do seem to see between Westbriar ES and Cunningham Park ES. I would suggest that all of these schools fall into the very good to excellent range, that there may be as much difference within these schools as there is between them, that there is no website that can compare to actually visiting a school, and that factors other than what may be rather minor differences between schools should not be discounted or sacrificed in researching a potential place of residence.

I think we're in agreement that Vienna (both town and "Faux Vienna") is a very nice place to live and that the schools that Vienna-area children attend range from good to excellent.

My only point is that the distinction between the town of Vienna and "Faux Vienna" is rather different from the distinction between the City of Falls Church and "Faux Falls Church."

The City of Falls Church has its own school system; the town of Vienna does not. The four Falls Church city schools are each highly regarded; in comparison, for the test score-obsessed, the four schools that Vienna-area children would tend to avoid very well might include two elementary schools located in the town of Vienna (Marshall Road and Cunningham Park), a middle school located in Falls Church (Jackson) and a high school located in Reston (South Lakes). These are the area schools with the comparatively lower "Greatschools" ES, MS and HS ratings and, yes, the distinctions between, say, Cunningham Park (GS 4), in the town of Vienna, and Colvin Run (GS10) or Wolftrap (GS 9), in "Faux Vienna" do seem to be more pronounced than those between Marshall HS (GS 7/US News Silver Medal) and McLean HS (GS 8/US News Gold Medal), which are both schools that many "Faux Vienna" students attend.

My take-away from this is not that any of these schools are sub-par, but simply that potential homebuyers should do their research if they are considering either the town of Vienna or "Faux Vienna." As you have probably seen, there is a recent thread started by a new Town of Vienna resident who apparently only recently came to learn that test scores at Cunningham Park are comparatively low for the area. I don't think that necessarily means that her children won't thrive at that school, and I specifically encouraged her to speak directly with parents of children at CP. If she is worrying now about those test scores, however, it's a shame she didn't know earlier.

One minor point - Westbriar ES (GS 9), to the best of my knowledge, is located at 1741 Pine Valley Drive, in "Faux Vienna" (zip code 22182), not the town. You may be confusing the school with the near-by "Westbriar Court, NE" in the town. I'm not sure if it matters, though, since the vast majority of its students live in "Faux Vienna," not the town, and go on to attend Kilmer Middle (in "Faux Vienna") and Marshall High (in "Faux Falls Church").

I've adopted your term "Faux Vienna," because I assume you just intended it as short-hand for county residents with Vienna mailing addresses. I think 22182 is called "Wolftrap" for census purposes, but no one (other than Money Magazine a few years ago) refers to "Wolftrap, VA." It's not like we were assigned Falls Church mailing addresses and told others we live in the "Vienna part of Falls Church." There's an idea - we'll petition for "South Great Falls" and probably get renamed "East Reston" instead! Any would be fine.

Cheers.

[spidercharm]

Originally Posted by saganista

I'm sure you would have your own reasons for avoiding Marshall Road or Cunningham Park. I'm not sure that others would necessarily view the situation in the same light.

I was raised in a middle class family myself; it is difficult to justify poor test scores by way of money...trust me. Bright kids are bright kids...rich, middle-class or poor - Asian or Hispanic.

The problem with some parts of Vienna - the way I see it - is unstable neighborhood profile - lot to do with several rental properties. That's where the two schools I mentioned fall in.

However, what bothers me the most about Vienna/Fairfax/Falls Church/Herndon is the fear of redistricting. Floris to new Coppermine school is a recent example - mockery of folks who purchased thinking they can send their kids to one of the top school.

[Skapov]

Originally Posted by saganista

I'm sure you would have your own reasons for avoiding Marshall Road or Cunningham Park. I'm not sure that others would necessarily view the situation in the same light.

Marshall Road serves children from the SW quadrant of Vienna, principally from Vienna Woods, which is a large, stable middle and upper-middle class neighborhood, along with children from among the populations that live for now in the townhouses, condos, and apartments just north and south of the Vienna Metro station. If you wanted your children to be exposed only to children from upper class families living in seven-figure homes, Marshall Road would not be the school for you.

Cunningham Park serves children from the east side of Vienna Woods, but also from the large Vienna Park apartment complex to the south which is predominantly moderate- and middle-income Hispanic. The apartments provide virtually all of the school's ESL and subsidized lunch students. The other half of the CPES district consists of the high-six and seven-figure homes of McHenry Heights, Oakdale Park, Oak Ridge, Wedderburn, and Onondio, along with a strip of distinctly upper-middle class homes in Stonewall Manor and Dunn Loring Woods. CPES as a whole then is any northside Vienna elementary school with the apartment complex added to its district. If one objects to a significant presence of Hispanic children (and/or Asians, Indo-Pakistanis, Persians, and Arabs), Cunningham Park might not be a good choice. But remembering that Fairfax County schools as a whole produce official communications in five languages (English, Spanish, Vietnamese, Korean, and Urdu), it might be that the region itself is the real source of one's problem.

In any case, both Cunningham Park and Marshall Road are well-run, well-funded Fairfax County schools staffed by very good to excellent teachers and administrators all dedicated to teaching the same curriculum with the same tools and opportunities that are available in other County schools. Such differences as there are arise from the relative backgrounds of the various students who attend them. If such diversity is problematic, one would need to have a lot of money, and then pick and choose a school and neighborhood very carefully.

As for Falls Church, all of the Falls Church City Public Schools (there are just the four of them) are rated very highly...more highly than various of the nearby Fairfax County schools, but not so much more highly than various of the nearby Arlington County schools.

Herndon will fall into the same situation as Cunningham Park. Herndon is any other affluent NoVa suburb -- beautiful neighborhoods, great parks and other amenities -- but with a signficantly larger than average moderate- and middle-income Hispanic population. Herndon's schools are not more run-down or more poorly staffed or equipped or supported because of the presence in the system of Hispanic 8-year olds. Those who are averse to the presence of Hispanic 8-year olds might be well advised to live elsewhere, but this would not necessarily be any sort of comment on the quality of Herndon's schools.

Very tongue-in-check synapsis and I enjoyed reading your post! Having read more than my fair share of "good school / bad school" debates in these forums, I've come to understand that when you boil it all down, it's really about people being adverse to the mere presence of brown-skinned students in their kid's schools. No other way to say it, except that RACISM liivveees...

[saganista]

Originally Posted by JEB77

One minor point - Westbriar ES (GS 9), to the best of my knowledge, is located at 1741 Pine Valley Drive, in "Faux Vienna" (zip code 22182), not the town.

Took me a while to find this thread again, but upon subsequent research, you are quite right. There is a sort of bulge along the eastern edge of the town boundary which I had assumed incorporated the school. But resources at Town Hall confirm that there are only some town maintenance facilities inside that bulge, and that the school is in fact next door. Hence, Westbriar joins Wolftrap (and Madison HS and Thoreau MS, for that matter) in being on the town line to one extent or another, but not actually being inside the town. Louise Archer, Marshall Road, and the Cedar Lane Center are in the other boat -- they are all on the boundary line as well, but they are INside the town. Cunningham Park is actually the only school that does not lie in any part along the town boundary. But the boundary is just one block away.

Otherwise, I think the "Actual" versus "Faux" situation itself is the same as between Vienna and Falls Church. The difference is a matter of degree. It would typically be worse unknowingly to end up in some parts of Faux Falls Church than in most parts of Faux Vienna, but the point either way is that one should understand that mailing addresses don't always tell the whole story in these parts, and one should take sufficient care to know just what one is actually getting into.

And yes, the test-obsessed should clearly check the test results. But those aren't going to say so much about the schools themselves. An individual child isn't going to have a particularly different educational experience or opportunity at any of these schools. He or she may have a different social and cultural experience, however. As I think I said earlier in this thread, though it may have been in some other, parents who believe that their child's best interests are served by being schooled in the more or less exclusive company of the upscale peers of professional parents who live in seven-figure homes are going have their work cut out for them in many parts of NoVa.

[ScranBarre]

Originally Posted by Skapov

Very tongue-in-check synapsis and I enjoyed reading your post! Having read more than my fair share of "good school / bad school" debates in these forums, I've come to understand that when you boil it all down, it's really about people being adverse to the mere presence of brown-skinned students in their kid's schools. No other way to say it, except that RACISM liivveees...

Not that I agree with the area being racist or not (in my brief three-day experience the cultures all seemed to mesh rather well so I'm not going to judge), but I must once again reiterate that I'm shocked beyond disbelief by what some people consider to be a "terrible" school in Fairfax County when ANY school there would highly trump most schools in my own area. Does "terrible" in NoVA really just mean "average?"

[saganista]

Originally Posted by spidercharm

The problem with some parts of Vienna - the way I see it - is unstable neighborhood profile - lot to do with several rental properties. That's where the two schools I mentioned fall in.

Unstable neighborhood profile??? Just for the record (as your post is from a month ago...my bad, there), there isn't anything at all unstable about the southside of Vienna. It was built out in the 1960s and the last catalyst for any actual change in the area was the arrival of Metro. That happened in June 1986. Otherwise, it's been a model of suburban stability. I drive through that area almost every day and have lived in the vicinity for forty years.

Originally Posted by spidercharm

However, what bothers me the most about Vienna/Fairfax/Falls Church/Herndon is the fear of redistricting. Floris to new Coppermine school is a recent example - mockery of folks who purchased thinking they can send their kids to one of the top school.

School redistricting is a fact of life all over. It is not in any way constrained to the limited areas noted. The job of FCPS (and any other system) is to program sensible resource uses. There is no point to having two neighboring schools each built to support 1,000 students, then having 1,800 students in one of them and 200 in the other. Not going to happen. Meanwhile, there isn't any mockery going on at all. Sounds to me like some people may have had rather unreasonable expectations of entitlement...

[JEB77]

Originally Posted by saganista

Took me a while to find this thread again, but upon subsequent research, you are quite right. There is a sort of bulge along the eastern edge of the town boundary which I had assumed incorporated the school. But resources at Town Hall confirm that there are only some town maintenance facilities inside that bulge, and that the school is in fact next door. Hence, Westbriar joins Wolftrap (and Madison HS and Thoreau MS, for that matter) in being on the town line to one extent or another, but not actually being inside the town. Louise Archer, Marshall Road, and the Cedar Lane Center are in the other boat -- they are all on the boundary line as well, but they are INside the town. Cunningham Park is actually the only school that does not lie in any part along the town boundary. But the boundary is just one block away.

Otherwise, I think the "Actual" versus "Faux" situation itself is the same as between Vienna and Falls Church. The difference is a matter of degree. It would typically be worse unknowingly to end up in some parts of Faux Falls Church than in most parts of Faux Vienna, but the point either way is that one should understand that mailing addresses don't always tell the whole story in these parts, and one should take sufficient care to know just what one is actually getting into.

And yes, the test-obsessed should clearly check the test results. But those aren't going to say so much about the schools themselves. An individual child isn't going to have a particularly different educational experience or opportunity at any of these schools. He or she may have a different social and cultural experience, however. As I think I said earlier in this thread, though it may have been in some other, parents who believe that their child's best interests are served by being schooled in the more or less exclusive company of the upscale peers of professional parents who live in seven-figure homes are going have their work cut out for them in many parts of NoVa.

I'm humbled that you felt the need to do additional research - somehow I always had the impression that you knew all these facts by memory!

I probably agree with the rest of your post - although, if you are reviving the significance of being in the town of Vienna vs. "Faux Vienna," my own view is that a prospective resident should do just as much due diligence when considering the Town of Vienna as when considering areas in the county with a Vienna mailing address, for precisely the reasons that you go on to address. There are no disadvantages - if they can fairly be labeled as such - to being in parts of the county with a Vienna mailing address that don't exist in the Town, at least insofar as schools are concerned.

[JEB77]

Originally Posted by saganista

School redistricting is a fact of life all over. It is not in any way constrained to the limited areas noted. The job of FCPS (and any other system) is to program sensible resource uses. There is no point to having two neighboring schools each built to support 1,000 students, then having 1,800 students in one of them and 200 in the other. Not going to happen. Meanwhile, there isn't any mockery going on at all. Sounds to me like some people may have had rather unreasonable expectations of entitlement...

The prospect of school redistrictings in Fairfax can be unsettling for a lot of people, including those who come from areas of the country where the school systems are town-based, rather than county-wide, and the boundaries are less susceptible to being adjusted.

And, while people may have unreasonable expectations if they purchase a home in the county and think they are immune from potential redistricting, FCPS has aggravated the anxiety with its inconsistent rationales for redistrictings when they do occur. For example, students from Westfield were redistricted to South Lakes in 2008, ostensibly because the former was too big, the latter too small, and 2000 students was declared by the School Board to be the ideal size for a county high school. OK, makes sense, except that, after that decision was reached, FCPS released a new capacity study that concluded Westfield wasn't really overcrowded after all; the School Board has taken no action to adjust the enrollment at some of the other smaller schools; and FCPS is now proposing to send students at Annandale High (which is undeniably overcrowded) not to adjacent Stuart or Woodson (each of which is a medium-sized high school that is expected to have extra capacity in the coming years), but instead to huge Lake Braddock Secondary, which already has roughly 2500 high school students (not to mention a middle school at the same location). Go figure. Some people think some of the Annandale students are being sent to Lake Braddock so that Lake Braddock won't be in a position to absorb additional middle-school students from overcrowded South County Secondary, thus guaranteeing that - at a time when there is a budget crunch and extra capacity in the Fairfax system as a whole - the well-connected South County area will still get the new middle school that it desires.

Some people may be view of the view that none of this really matters at the end of the day, as the schools are all good, a good education can be had at any of the schools, etc. I'm sympathetic to that viewpoint, but the shifting justifications nevertheless create an enormous amount of distrust among parents and students, given the lack of transparency and consistency in the School Board's explanations. Some of the Washington Post reporters - whose kids probably attend either Whitman or B-CC in Montgomery County, or a private school in DC like St. Albans - had a field day in 2007 and last year suggesting that the opponents in Fairfax to the South Lakes redistricting were closet racists or worse, horrible property owners only interested in protecting their home equity, but the folks who were affected had a right to expect an honest answer from their elected representatives, and they didn't sure get one.