Urban Planning Discussion: "Fixing" NoVA (Outside the Beltway) (Arlington: sale, townhomes)

[ScranBarre]

Originally Posted by lchoro

They should have built in parking garages in the high-rise structures.

It was foolish to build mid-rise condos and 2-story townhouses in the town center district. I don't see those being redeveloped for a long long time. There are too many ownership interests.

Agreed. How does this get fixed? Are they going to start tearing down all the townhomes? Will they tear down the high-rises to rebuild ones with ATTACHED or UNDERGROUND parking? I just am not seeing how things are supposed to improve during my lifetime.

[ScranBarre]

Getting back on-topic and off the "You suck, ScranBarre" tangent the past two pages have veered onto, does anyone have anything CONSTRUCTIVE to say about how we CAN fix the area, or are the 40-minute commutes destined to become 70-minute commutes, the better part of Loudoun County's open space destined to become McMansionvilles, pedestrians and cyclists destined to become roadkill, etc.?

[guyincognito]

Originally Posted by claremarie

So you say, but people reveal their true preferences (as opposed to the socially acceptable blather they tell pollsters) by the decisions they make. And MANY people who COULD take public transit opt instead to commute by car because they prefer the privacy and flexibility. Instead of buying a small house in Arlington within easy reach of Metro, they choose instead to buy a much larger home in Ashburn, with the garage/master bath/family room/eat-in kitchen most older Arlington homes lack, for the same amount of money.
Why is that so hard to understand or accept? You can see it daily on this forum alone, as those who are relocating from more affordable parts of the country wrestle with the house size/commute length decision.

That's a non-sequitur if I ever saw one. Many people can't take public transportation because they don't live near it and can't buy near it. Did you ever wonder why that 1945 WWII-bungalow half a mile from a Metro station in Arlington sells for $600k, while a new construction 3000 sq ft house in Ashburn sells for $450k? People want to live near transit and jobs. Every apartment building and condo that is built in Arlington fills up, and its housing market has maintained much better than the outer suburbs. People DESIRE convenient housing. They SETTLE for what they can afford. That's not to say that people don't also desire space - areas that have both (McLean) are especially prized. Wanting is only part of the equation though... its also a question of what can we SUSTAIN.

But doesn't it say something that the only area people can reference when talking about walkable areas that are accessible to transit is Arlington? Why, in the 70 years or so since Arlington built out have we not created a walkable suburb?

[JEB77]

Arlington does very well with young singles - that's part of the reason why we keep encouraging ScranBarre to find a way to make Arlington work for him. And Arlington has many very nice family-oriented neighborhoods as well.

As to whether it's quite the mecca that the PP described, I still have my doubts. There are parts of Falls Church (City), McLean (central) and Vienna (Town) that are more "walkable" than parts of North Arlington, if walkability is a key goal.

In addition, if living in Arlington were the ne plus ultra that some of you keep suggesting, I'd expect to see upper-income families competing a bit more intensely for the available housing, with a commensurate increase in the test scores in the Arlington schools. Here's how the Arlington schools appear to compare with the Fairfax schools on SATs, based on the most recent available scores:

1. TJ - 2184
2. Langley - 1816
3. McLean - 1795
4. Woodson - 1775
5. Madison - 1730
6. Oakton - 1725
YORKTOWN - 1719
7. Marshall - 1675
8. Robinson - 1662
9. Westfield - 1655
10. Chantilly - 1654
11. Lake Braddock - 1641
12. Herndon - 1628
13. West Springfield - 1620
14. Centreville - 1613
Fairfax - 1613
WASHINGTON-LEE - 1611
16. South County - 1598
17. South Lakes - 1588
18. West Potomac - 1571
19. Edison - 1526
20. Stuart - 1522
21. Annandale - 1521
22. Lee - 1516
23. Hayfield - 1505
24. Falls Church - 1459
WAKEFIELD - 1424
25. Mount Vernon - 1393

Guess I'd expect to see the Arlington schools bunched at least a bit more toward the top if living in Arlington was viewed as favorably by most as the PP suggested. Seems to me that there are plenty of folks who choose - and are not forced - to live in Fairfax and Loudoun.

[Yankeesfan]

Notice there's still no response from Scran-Barre about his choice to drive solo instead of taking the bus or finding/creating a carpool, despite his incessant complaints that everyone else is clogging up the roads on him by driving.

[claremarie]

"Many people can't take public transportation because they don't live near it and can't buy near it."

And many more live near enough but don't use it because

it takes too long
it costs too much
it's not as convenient as driving
they have children to drop off/pick up at school or daycare
they have errands to run after work
they don't like to stand for 30 minutes on a packed train
they don't like to wait in the dark, cold, or rain at the bus stop
their work schedule is too erratic

or they would really rather drive their own car, on their own schedule, in peace and quiet rather than deal with the masses on public transit. Even if they are sitting in traffic.

It's difficult for the die-hard public transit snobs to accept, but LOTS of people prefer driving.

[guyincognito]

Originally Posted by claremarie

"Many people can't take public transportation because they don't live near it and can't buy near it."

And many more live near enough but don't use it because

it takes too long
it costs too much
it's not as convenient as driving
they have children to drop off/pick up at school or daycare
they have errands to run after work
they don't like to stand for 30 minutes on a packed train
they don't like to wait in the dark, cold, or rain at the bus stop
their work schedule is too erratic

or they would really rather drive their own car, on their own schedule, in peace and quiet rather than deal with the masses on public transit. Even if they are sitting in traffic.

It's difficult for the die-hard public transit snobs to accept, but LOTS of people prefer driving.

1) This entire conversation has been about having options. Not forcing someone to take the bus or to drive. Options.

2) As someone who used to live on top of a metro line and drive to work, I can tell you from personal experience that a lot of people drive because the Metro doesn't go to their place of employment. There was no way to get from Arlington to Tysons without a circuitous route on a bus. I would occasionally take the bus when it was snowing or my car was in the shop. Again, it's about options. Now that Metro is going to Tysons, I'd have no qualms about taking it every day.

[claremarie]

"This entire conversation has been about having options. Not forcing someone to take the bus or to drive. Options."
No, your position was that lots of people WANT to take public transit but cannot do so because the evil developers have failed to allow them to make that choice. My point was that many of them don't actually want to take public transit at all (unless they can have door to door rail service with no waiting, no standing, no exposure to inclement weather, and hefty subsidies), as demonstrated by their seemingly irrational decision to drive to work when public transit is available.

[Yankeesfan]

Yes, that's the point, which is that people ARE entitled to choose their option, and those who choose to drive solo even though there are other options (bus, carpools) available to them should not be criticizing others for also choosing to drive. Kind of ranks with the inconvenient truth of Mr. Anti-Carbon-Footprint Al Gore living in a massive energy-guzzling mansion.

[guyincognito]

Originally Posted by claremarie

"This entire conversation has been about having options. Not forcing someone to take the bus or to drive. Options."
No, your position was that lots of people WANT to take public transit but cannot do so because the evil developers have failed to allow them to make that choice. My point was that many of them don't actually want to take public transit at all (unless they can have door to door rail service with no waiting, no standing, no exposure to inclement weather, and hefty subsidies), as demonstrated by their seemingly irrational decision to drive to work when public transit is available.

I'm afraid you've lost the plot. I never said people shouldn't be allowed to drive. I never said there was one optimal living arrangement that everyone needs to follow. I did say we should focus future growth towards higher density to satisfy a significant demand for walkable, transit-friendly neighborhoods. Your contention that "many" people do not want to take public transit does not invalidate my contention that "many" people do want transit options. Since development in the last 50 years has been almost exclusively automobile-focused, my only suggestion is that we again look at other development patterns that don't require going everywhere in a car.

Also, I have never once referred to developers as evil. Don't misrepresent my position.