Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
What you say is simply not true. The SFH neighborhoods that feed into W-L are roughly the same as those that feed into Yorktown, and the school board over the years has worked hard to maintain that, so as not to stir up any resentment. Yorktown and W-L students mostly come from the 22201, 22207, and 22205 zips, and the SFH housing types in these areas are all comparable in terms of size and quality. Most neighborhoods are in fact split between the two schools, such as Tara-Leeway Heights or Dover Crystal/Donaldson Run, etc. There are no obvious, perceptible differences between the W-L and Yorktown neighborhoods. Through slightly gerrymandered school boundaries, however, the W-L district does receive students from apartment complexes along the eastern and western portions of Columbia Pike.
The median price for a Single Family Home in the southern portion of 22201 just over Rt 50 in North Arlington is in fact over 1 million. There is no SFH neighborhood dichotomy in North Arlington. The kids at W-L and Yorktown mostly come from the same neighborhoods and feeder schools which helps to explain the fierce rivalry between the schools.
Both Yorktown and W-L are also districted to very similar working & lower middle class and historically African American neighborhoods (Halls Hill and Arlington View).
I think you've inspired me to do an Arlington photo tour.
Photos are fun (I particularly liked Scran's recent Fredericksburg photos), but all the photos in the world won't change the fact that, like it or not, the North Arlington neighborhoods (or portions of neighborhoods) that feed into Yorktown have a bit more cache, in the great NoVa pecking order, than the North/Central Arlington neighborhoods that feed into W-L. It's far, far, far from the end of the world, but you're simply deceiving yourself if you think otherwise. Just check the local real estate listings and compare the number of houses that promote their location in the Yorktown district vs. the number that highlight their location in the W-L district.
Photos are fun (I particularly liked Scran's recent Fredericksburg photos), but all the photos in the world won't change the fact that, like it or not, the North Arlington neighborhoods that feed into Yorktown have a bit more cache, in the great NoVa pecking order, than the North/Central Arlington neighborhoods that feed into W-L. It's far, far, far from the end of the world, but you're simply deceiving yourself if you think otherwise. Just check the local real estate listings and compare the number of houses that promote their location in the Yorktown district vs. the number that highlight their location in the W-L district.
Here's my analysis and we'll have to agree to disagree for now at least:
I'm not counting, but here are general observations in the recent real estate listings of the Sun Gazette: The most promoted school pyramid is usually Jamestown-Williamsburg-Yorktown. Other popular Yorktown pyramids include Nottingham-Williamsburg-Yorktown, and Taylor-Williamsburg-Yorktown. The W-L pyramids the Sun Gazette real estate ads most promote include Taylor-Swanson-W-L and Mckinley-Swanson-W-L. I've also seen Glebe-Swanson-W-L.
Why is Jamestown/Yorktown the most promoted of the school pyramids? Here is my explanation. Many of the Yorktown hs neighborhoods in this part of the county are more uniformly suburban by virtue of their location far from the denser commercial/residential areas and to some that might hold some cache. For the schools, that means a more uniformly higher-income demographic, and that too might hold some cache. Some, but not all, of the SFH neighborhoods that feed into W-L are surrounded by denser forms of development (e.g. Westover, Ballston) which might lead to some assumptions. But, never judge a book by its cover-->
Let's do an analysis of North Arlington housing typologies in terms of size. There are no hard and fast rules: The modest 1,200 sq ft colonials and ramblers that feed into the popular Jamestown Elem/ Yorktown pyramid in far North Arlington are much smaller that the large, 1930s-era center hall colonials of Ashton Heights or Lyon Village, two exclusively W-L hs neighborhoods near Clarendon. Yet the colonials in the Jamestown district do very closely resemble the colonials of Arlington Forest along Rt 50. I do realize, however that the affluence of nearby Country Club Hills and Old Glebe help push up the values of these small homes near Jamwstown.
Of the wealthiest areas off Military Rd near the river, Bellevue Forest sends students to Yorktown. The similar, adjacent neighborhoods such as Dover Crystal, Riverwood, and Woodmont primarily send students to W-L. These neighborhoods are all equally wealthy and similar in appearance. The W-L and Yorktown neighborhood school pyramids for this part of the county are equally promoted. To say that the Yorktown hs portion of Donaldson Run, for example, is more upscale than the W-L hs portion, which you are implying, is a bit ridiculous.
Of the neighborhoods closest to Yorktown HS, many of the homes are modest red brick cape cods and colonials, with larger homes generally north of Yorktown Blvd. Of the neighborhoods closest to W-L, the larger homes are are in Waverly Hills near the Lee Heights shops, but they are not visible from the major roads. Just north of W-L is Cherrydale, which is notoriously expensive. It has a more diverse array of housing styles from smaller bungalows to some very large homes.
I can prove my point in photos. You will see that I am generally right as there are no hard and fast rules concerning housing types in most of No Arlington.
But the point of my future photo tour is not to disprove you in this discussion, but rather to show off the many beautiful SFH neighborhoods throughout the county that many never see, especially those that limit themselves to the Orange line corridor. I probably won't get to it for few weeks anyway, but definitely before November before I leave the area.
My conclusion:
More uniformly suburban neighborhoods feed into Yorktown, and the school and its neighborhoods have a more "uniformly" upper-income demographic. Of the North Arlington students that attend W-L and Yorktown, the majority of those from SFH neighborhoods are, generally speaking, equally wealthy. This is because the neighborhoods that feed into both Yorktown and W-L are roughly the same in terms of SFH typologies. That's simply the truth. (Growing up, I had friends all over the county. So I am very familiar with its neighborhoods.)
Or, to put it bluntly. The white kids at W-L and the white kids at Yorktown are generally equally wealthy and come from similar neighborhoods. There are more white kids at Yorktown.
Here's my analysis and we'll have to agree to disagree for now at least:
I'm not counting, but here are general observations in the recent real estate listings of the Sun Gazette: The most promoted school pyramid is usually Jamestown-Williamsburg-Yorktown. Other popular Yorktown pyramids include Nottingham-Williamsburg-Yorktown, and Taylor-Williamsburg-Yorktown. The W-L pyramids the Sun Gazette real estate ads most promote include Taylor-Swanson-W-L and Mckinley-Swanson-W-L. I've also seen Glebe-Swanson-W-L.
Why is Jamestown/Yorktown the most promoted of the school pyramids? Here is my explanation. Many of the Yorktown hs neighborhoods in this part of the county are more uniformly suburban by virtue of their location far from the denser commercial/residential areas and to some that might hold some cache. For the schools, that means a more uniformly higher-income demographic, and that too might hold some cache. Some, but not all, of the SFH neighborhoods that feed into W-L are surrounded by denser forms of development (e.g. Westover, Ballston) which might lead to some assumptions. But, never judge a book by its cover-->
Let's do an analysis of North Arlington housing typologies in terms of size. There are no hard and fast rules: The modest 1,200 sq ft colonials and ramblers that feed into the popular Jamestown Elem/ Yorktown pyramid in far North Arlington are much smaller that the large, 1930s-era center hall colonials of Ashton Heights or Lyon Village, two exclusively W-L hs neighborhoods near Clarendon. Yet the colonials in the Jamestown district do very closely resemble the colonials of Arlington Forest along Rt 50. I do realize, however that the affluence of nearby Country Club Hills and Old Glebe help push up the values of these small homes near Jamwstown.
Of the wealthiest areas off Military Rd near the river, Bellevue Forest sends students to Yorktown. The similar, adjacent neighborhoods such as Dover Crystal, Riverwood, and Woodmont primarily send students to W-L. These neighborhoods are all equally wealthy and similar in appearance. The W-L and Yorktown neighborhood school pyramids for this part of the county are equally promoted. To say that the Yorktown hs portion of Donaldson Run, for example, is more upscale than the W-L hs portion, which you are implying, is a bit ridiculous.
Of the neighborhoods closest to Yorktown HS, many of the homes are modest red brick cape cods and colonials, with larger homes generally north of Yorktown Blvd. Of the neighborhoods closest to W-L, the larger homes are are in Waverly Hills near the Lee Heights shops, but they are not visible from the major roads. Just north of W-L is Cherrydale, which is notoriously expensive. It has a more diverse array of housing styles from smaller bungalows to some very large homes.
I can prove my point in photos. You will see that I am generally right as there are no hard and fast rules concerning housing types in most of No Arlington.
But the point of my future photo tour is not to disprove you in this discussion, but rather to show off the many beautiful SFH neighborhoods throughout the county that many never see, especially those that limit themselves to the Orange line corridor. I probably won't get to it for few weeks anyway, but definitely before November before I leave the area.
My conclusion:
More uniformly suburban neighborhoods feed into Yorktown, and the school and its neighborhoods have a more "uniformly" upper-income demographic. Of the North Arlington students that attend W-L and Yorktown, the majority of those from SFH neighborhoods are, generally speaking, equally wealthy. This is because the neighborhoods that feed into both Yorktown and W-L are roughly the same in terms of SFH typologies. That's simply the truth. (Growing up, I had friends all over the county. So I am very familiar with its neighborhoods.)
Great; look forward to the pictures if you take them.
With your having said all that, I will still maintain that part of the reason why portions of Arlington are now viewed as attractive is that they were designed to avoid the perceived flaws of Crystal City and Rosslyn; that redevelopment in portions of Arlington were welcomed because they areas they were replacing were not particularly attractive, at least in the late 1970s and early 1980s; and - just as elsewhere in NoVa - there are still portions of Arlington that, for a number of reasons, aren't as attractive to many families as neighborhoods in Fairfax, Loudoun or PwC where the homes are similarly priced.
Scran can rail against the outer suburbs all he wants - he pretends that he's going way out on a limb, but he's largely preaching to a choir of fellow-believers - but not everyone would choose to be in Alexandria or Arlington even if they had the choice.
"There are space and schools concerns of course, but people will be more willing to compromise on those for a greater quality of life in general."
Most parents in the DC area who have the means to choose where they live will NOT compromise on schools. That is the deal-breaker for the families athousandlogins describes who, reluctantly or not, pull up their DC stakes for the suburbs when the distant horizon of school becomes a dismal reality. Developers can build all of the "smart growth" vertical mixed-use developments in the world, but they will only attract a small percentage of families with children. And those will be families with one or at most two children, not families with 3+ kids who need more bedrooms, a minivan, and outdoor play space.
Being able to walk to a hip coffee shop or the upscale grocery store is nice for a while, but being able to drive to a large grocery store with ample parking, load up your minivan with milk, diapers, and dog food, then drive home into your 2-car garage and unload while the kids are asleep in their car seats has its own special charms that are not fully appreciated by those who haven't tried to live vertically with young children.
Most families don't want to live vertically. They want a house with a yard and a garage, and they want to feel good about sending their kids to the local public school.
Status:
"Not much time for CD these days but I'll post when I can"
(set 23 days ago)
Location: Loudoun County, VA
15,664 posts, read 8,874,610 times
Reputation: 39248
OK, ScranBarre--it appears you're going to keep bringing up this dead horse until somebody (ANYBODY!!!!) will discuss it in detail. So here goes, a detail look at various city planning changes we could make in NOVA and why I don't think we need any of them. And now that you've finally gotten a response, let's make this the final thread on the topic.
I don't think NOVA needs to be "fixed" and I can think of a lot more important uses for our tax dollars than a bunch of city planning changes. I've lived here on and off since childhood, and what we have works well, IMO. I've also lived in other cities and towns. So I've been trying to think what was different in those places that I'd like to see incorporated here. I really can't think of any city design changes that other towns have that I'd like to see made here.
Some thoughts on specific city planning changes:
1. Grid Street Design. Grid streets are not something I want. Been there, done that. Never again. They make traffic run faster, I suppose, but faster traffic is not that important to me. We had them in my suburban neighborhood south of Los Angeles, and it was great for the 20-something singles but a nightmare if you had young kids.
NOVA is primarily a family-oriented region. Therefore our street design needs to cater to needs of families, not the desires of 20-somethings. If you prefer a grid street design, move closer to the city. For suburban living I prefer neighborhoods with cul de sacs connected by a few main arteries. Cul de sacs are a good place for kids to play, and you tend to meet your neighbors. They slow down traffic, when you have young kids that's a good thing.
2. More bridges across the Potomac. This is a political issue, not a city planning issue. I see no reason to waste even a dime on bridge plans, since no amount of city planning is going to make Maryland agree to it.
3. Parkways built parallel to major thoroughfares. I'm all for this, but we don't need to plan them--they've already been planned. This is a money issue, not a planning issue. By the way, it's the developers who pay for most of the new parkways. They build them as part of the proffer system. For example, the Kincora Development is completing Gloucester Parkway and extending Pacific Blvd so that it runs parallel to Rt. 28 from Rt. 7 to Waxpool. The Lansdowne developers built Riverside Parkway as part of their proffers. Just something to think about the next time you start ranting about developers. Developers are also the ones paying for most of the new interchanges that are helping the traffic situation.
4. Cram the general population into dense high rises. If I wanted to live like that I'd move back to NYC.
I know it's trendy to "hate" sprawl but the real truth is most of the people here love our sprawling neighborhoods. IMO they're pretty well designed. My suburban neighborhood in Herndon is considered sprawl, but it has sidewalks. We have stores, schools, playgrounds, parks, office buildings, and churches within walking distance. No matter what I need to buy I've never had to drive more than a mile or two to find a store. We have bus stops that will take me to the metro station as well as various other places. I drive 5 miles to work, my husband drives 7 miles.
Here are some photos, if you'd like to see how many things are within walking distance in my neighborhood out in the sprawl. Two Herndon Neighborhoods: Lotsa Photos
By the way, I find it interesting that some of the people on this forum who go on and on about how other people should be crammed into high rises do not choose to live in high rises themselves. Not trying to pick on you ScranBarre, I'm using you as an example because you've been open about where you live. When you moved here a few months ago, you chose to move into a low rise, sprawling complex (Charter Oak), even though Reston has several high rise apartments you could have chosen instead. I'm sure you had good reasons for this choice, but the bottom line is the high rise places weren't as appealling. If a young single guy isn't willing to live in them, why would a family with a bunch of little children?
5. Build more metro lines. I'm not a fan of building more metro lines, to be honest. They're very expensive, and the neighborhoods that need to be serviced tend to change over the years. I like the bus system, and I'd be in favor of adding more bus routes. However, the trick is to get people to use them. Again, not trying to pick on you ScranBarre, but you talk about how everyone else needs to use mass transportation but at the same time you drive to work, even though it's easy to take a bus from Reston to Tysons and we've posted bus routes for you. If we can't even get someone like ScranBarre to take the bus, the problem is not a city planning issue.
6. Build more parks. NOVA already has an impressive park system. Our parks are more numerous and more accessible than any other city I've lived in. Almost every neighborhood has parks and trails within easy access.
7. Hospitals, office buildings, schools, performing art centers, etc. I'm happy with what we have. Compared with other cities I've lived in, we have better services and they seem to be fairly well distributed. We could always use a few more--every city could--but what we have is more that adequate, and better than what most other cities have. Some of the newer neighborhoods do not yet have all their public buildings in place, but the plans are there. It's a matter of raising money, not a matter of needing more city planning.
8. Sports facilities. We have more outdoor sports facilities than most cities in the U.S. We don't have that many indoor facilities, but IMO that's going to change in the next decade. The big box stores will be converted to neighborhood ice rinks, skateboard pavilions, etc.
9. Strip Malls. Another thing we're all supposed to hate. But the truth is, we all love to shop at them. Let's face it, when you have a lot of shopping to do it's convenient to park right in front of a store. Those cutesy little pedestrian mall areas don't get a lot of shoppers because carrying your purchases to a parking garage a block away is a royal pain.
I like the newer strip malls that have walk ways and landscaped areas. Some even have green spaces large enough to small concerts. Brambleton is an example of this. If I had to come up with a city planning "fix" I'd choose building more strip malls that incorporate landscaping.
10. Small locally-owned cafes. Someone asked why there aren't a lot of mom and pop cafes selling gourmet salads. The reason has nothing to do with city planning, it has to do with the fact that most NOVA neighborhoods are primarily family oriented. Families with small children don't hang out in cafes, they go to Burger King. The only place you'll see a lot of mom-and-pop cafes selling gourmet salads are the neighborhoods that attract tourists or where a lot of young singles live.
I've seen plenty of cafes and other small specialty restaurants open in NOVA over the years. Some do well, but many go out of business. Cascades Marketplace is a classic example. When it opened they had more than 20 small eateries. Some were chains (Starbucks, Subway, etc.) but most of them were locally-owned business that included delis, pizzerias, chinese takeout, BBQ joints, and coffee shops. As time passed the unique places began to close, replaced by the chains. Why? Because they didn't get enough customers. All the best city planning in the world won't change eating habits.
11. Pedestrian Malls. We've done this subject to death already, and yes I know that people have different opinions on this. My opinion is pedestrian malls are cute but relatively useless. They cost money to build and they don't bring in a lot tax dollars. I've lived in a few towns that built them and they were nice enough but they didn't particularly thrill me. The stores in them tend to go out of business on a regular basis. If you want a local example, check out the always-changing gift shops in downtown Leesburg. People don't buy a lot of things at stores if they have to walk a block or more to get to them.
To be fair, pedestrian malls work well in tourist areas. I don't happen to live anywhere near a tourist area, but if the economy gets better to a point where our county has money to throw away, then maybe I'd be in favor of building a few pedestrian malls in the touristy spots.
12. Sidewalks. I happen to like sidewalks. Therefore, when I bought a house I made sure to buy in a neighborhood that had plenty of them. If sidewalks are important to you, do not buy or rent a place that does not already have them. Don't waste your time running to the town council demanding that they build more sidewalks, instead choose a place that already has sidewalks.
13. Add more mountains, beaches, and oceans. Yes, I know adding mountains and oceans is not a city planning issue. But when I thought about the things I liked in the other places I lived, mountains and oceans were the only features those cities had that NOVA lacks. If someone has a plan for how a city planner can add these features to NOVA, I'd be thrilled. Otherwise, I can't think of any city planning changes that NOVA really needs. IMO.
14. If we don't raise taxes, spend a ton of $$$ on city planning and otherwise act like California in the 1980s, in 20 years we'll all be doomed. DOOMED! Funny how so many Californians and California companies are moving here, even though we don't have pedestrian malls or other such city planning innovations. San Diego has some amazing city planning, so how could SAIC chose to leave there? Oh that's right, something about the high cost of paying for things like all that urban design.
And it's also funny that the people who make the doomsday predictions are almost always young kids who pay rent (not property taxes). In other words, the people who contribute the least amount of taxes and who have lived here the least amount of time.
Those of us who have more of an investment in the area don't seem as bothered. Now why is that? I can only speak for myself, but I've been hearing doomsday pronouncements that "in 20 years no one will want to live here" since the 1960s. And I'll bet people have been saying the same thing ever since Virginia was settled. I remember back in the 1980's the prediction was our pollution would be so bad that by the year 2000 everyone would abandon the area and Northern Virginia would be a ghost town.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha, didn't quite work out that way did it?
To be honest, it'd be ok by me if we were "less desirable." We're attracting too many people as it is! I'd be thrilled if some other city became desirable and everyone started moving there, instead.
OK, this post is getting ridiculously long so I'll skip to the bottom line: I'm happy with the way NOVA is designed. We aren't broken and we don't need "fixing."
I know city planning is your passion, ScranBarre, but that doesn't mean the entire region needs to be redesigned to please you. (And frankly, I can think of a lot better uses for my tax dollars.) Suburban NOVA was not designed to thrill a 22-year-old--we get that! But guess what, most people who live here are not 22 and single. People your age can find neighborhoods designed for them closer to the city. The suburbs do not need to be "fixed" they need to be recognized as an area designed for families. The people I know find life here very liveable.
That's all I have to say on city planning. I hope we have now exhausted this subject.
Figured I'd drop my two cents on the matter. There's certainly more than one school of thought. I think the suburbs are nice. It's pleasant outside the beltway. There's trees and less crime. People leave their doors unlocked all the time and if you leave a package on someone's doorstep it actually stays there (I still hate that my stuff is just sitting there waiting for me to get home though).
Also I'm not a fan of older houses. I prefer living in newer buildings especially after living in an older house inside the beltway that had terrible wiring and frequent blackouts. That was what prompted me to give up my short commute to live further out, after the last blackout I knew it was time to leave. Now I live somewhere that's pleasant and safe and newer. So I think that the quality of life outside the beltway is pretty high. The houses are newer and there's less riff raff.
So let it be known that I like the suburbs. After being mugged and having my car broken into in the city I have no interest in Oakton looking like the big city.
So with that being said I will say that I hate the lack of walkability, yes there are sidewalks in my neighborhood so I take that back it is very walkable but there's nothing to walk to. I really wish there was a corner store or something in my neighborhood. I hate the stressful commute and that when I get home from work I feel like a prisoner in my own home because there's just so much darn traffic just to get to the Giant a mile up the road.
Places like Brambleton or near my job, Shirlington are great. Unfortunately they're so expensive and it has been mentioned there are not enough of them to match demand.
I think in the end people do want the amenities of the city in the suburbs. The problem is we don't want the negatives associated with the city just benefits. Sometimes you just can't have your cake and eat it too.
So yeah people like the suburbs as they are. I understand the purpose of showing the cul-de-sac pictures. It's an appalling waste of space. We get it. At the same time remember that the evil developers aren't forcing people to live on cul-de-sacs. The developers are providing products that the people want. I like cul-de-sacs they're quieter. Although for the record I do believe that cul-de-sacs are being phased out by the commonwealth new developments can't have them anymore.
However, let me add that the suburbs could certainly use some improvement. The main one being the traffic that plagues the DC area. I think the silver line is a step in the right direction, but more suburb to suburb transit options is needed and just more lines in general there should be every color in the crayon box not just red, blue and friends. The spoke design has got to go and really that's what the silver line is. It will connect Reston to DC. Yippee! But what about Springfield to Tysons? Woodbridge to Ballston? Ashburn to Fairfax?
How about adjusting the zoning laws so corner stores can set up in the middle of subdivisions not just overcrowded arteries? I think some areas could use more sidewalks and some areas are doing just fine without them. Streetlights are relative on one hand they're nice but darkness and the quiet that it brings isn't bad either. I like stars.
I don't know if I agree that focusing solely on families is the way to go by the way. The suburbs should be a pleasant place for all not just folks with kids.
So yeah in conclusion. Life outside of the beltway is peaceful and nice except for the traffic. Are there things that could make life better sure? But NoVA isnt' broken.
F
Places like Brambleton or near my job, Shirlington are great. Unfortunately they're so expensive and it has been mentioned there are not enough of them to match demand.
I think in the end people do want the amenities of the city in the suburbs. The problem is we don't want the negatives associated with the city just benefits. Sometimes you just can't have your cake and eat it too.
I gotta check out this Brambleton. Will the future silver line make it as far as Brambleton? I'm assuming it's a little like Kentlands in Gaithersburg?
In terms of appearance, I'm guessing it's all in some kitschy, historicist, style. But I doubt the "European modernism" of Reston's Lake Anne will ever resurface in a residential development in Northern Virginia in the near future. But one can hope.
OK, this post is getting ridiculously long so I'll skip to the bottom line: I'm happy with the way NOVA is designed. We aren't broken and we don't need "fixing."
I gotta check out this Brambleton. Will the future silver line make it as far as Brambleton? I'm assuming it's a little like Kentlands in Gaithersburg?
In terms of appearance, I'm guessing it's all in some kitschy, historicist, style. But I doubt the "European modernism" of Reston's Lake Anne will ever resurface in a residential development in Northern Virginia in the near future. But one can hope.
Brambleton is a couple of miles from the (future) terminal Silver Line station. The housing stock is a variety of harmonious styles from six or seven different builders - for example, the Miller and Smith homes are Arts-and-Crafts-inspired, whereas the Winchester homes are more like your typical NoVa neo-colonial brick-fronts. Some parts of Brambleton do remind me of Kentlands.
I've been inspired by ScranBarre and I am actually working on a photo tour that I will hopefully have posted sometime this week.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $53,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Funny how so many Californians and California companies are moving here, even though we don't have pedestrian malls or other such city planning innovations. San Diego has some amazing city planning, so how could SAIC chose to leave there? Oh that's right, something about the high cost of paying for things like all that urban design. 
