does anyone else hate it here? (Roanoke, Reston: to live, moving, transportation)

[cristinarivera1]

I'm sorry you feel that way! We (my husband, 8-year-old boy, and myself) moved here a little over two years ago, and we instantly fell in love with it! I don't know where in Northern VA you live, but Arlington is really nice, and the education system is great (a plus when you have children!) I can assure you there are also all types of people from every walk of life. I agree that a lot of areas are really expensive, but there are also great job and advancement opportunities. By the way, I've yet to meet someone who has spoken to me about politics!

[car54]

Originally Posted by Alanboy395

Great to hear from someone who successfully escaped Northern Virginia!!

Sheesh, you make it sound like NOVA is a huge prison!

I've left the region hundreds of times on trips, etc....not once have I ever been detained at the border. None of the routes into the region are one-way that I know of. Never once been questioned at the airport or train station about why I was leaving.

I guarantee it will be the same for you!

[JEB77]

Originally Posted by blueorbitz

Hi d-fens,

I'm originally from New York (Long Island) and went to college in upstate NY. I ended up living in NOVA (falls church, arlington, rosslyn) for about 8 years. I really hated it there and wished I could've moved out sooner. I have some complicated medical problems and I happened to have a very cheap apt. for about 5 years, so the thing that kept me there was financial considerations.

The only positives there, for me, were economic, lots of jobs in the area. Also it is a diverse area which I like. I had some very good doctors. Also had great dentist and mechanic.

If you are not liking it there, don't worry it's not you. I don't know why people try to make it sound like every city or place is the same. Or that the problem must be you. lol, it's not you! Places have their personalities and the NOVA/DC personality did not mesh well with my personality. I found it to be a very cold, unfriendly area. A lot of socially awkward people who are obsessed with work and status. New York has it's issues that I don't like, can be very materialistic, but imo New Yorkers still have a personality and care about other people. My experience in Va was that it was very hard to meet people, most of the people I met I wouldn't really want to know, arrogant, self centered, it was like power hungry dorks on steroids. I'm a person that thrives on social contact so I find it strange when I acknowledge people in passing with eye contact or a hello and people would not reply, or make an effort to look away. I'm a woman and I often felt like the response to my friendliness was what the hell do you want you crazy serial killer. For a while I had a group of close friends there, so that made it bearable, but they all moved out of the area (tends to be transitory and seems like the good people are always escaping as fast as they can), that is when it got really bad. I tried all sorts of things to meet people, taking classes at community college, dance classes, yoga classes, adult education classes, volunteering. I tried all kinds of different things, and no I did not act negative about the area, but after a while it beats you down when no matter what you do and how friendly you are, the people aren't receptive. I'm sure that there will be those people that come along and say it must have been me, maybe I was too friendly, or I was too negative, but it was absolutely not me that was the problem. To those that love the area, that's cool, but it's not for everyone and for those of us that don't like it we have just as much right to give our opinions. When people ask about an area, I would think they want to hear all different perspectives on it
It helps to have family in the area, and when I had a group of close friends, all of whom I met there, I was still bothered by the strange vibes you get from a lot of people in that area. I guess part of it is that people there work hard, are stuck in traffic, so they are stressed and too busy. But I find NYC to be way friendlier than NOVA/DC and ya' know NYC isn't exactly known as being friendly. I think it's not a good area if you are more down to earth and like to laugh a lot. I found people there to be seriously lacking a sense of humor. I'm all for discussions, debates, political debates, but my problem with it in NOVA is that the people don't like to sit around and shoot the sh$t, it's usually more of a pissing contest than a real discussion.

One of my friends from New York City came down to visit a bunch of times and he really liked it b/c we took him out to the gay bars and from that angle it seemed ok to him. Then he came down for 2 weeks for a short contracting job. Within a matter of 2 days he was like omg, I could never live here, now i see what you mean about how the people are. He said even the homeless people are uptight, he gave the guy a cigarette and the guy started to get pissed b/c it was taking my friend too long to locate a light. He said it was hard to explain exactly what felt off about the people, but that something was off.

Here's another tiny example, I was in Dupont, 2 guys were walking a very cute little dog. I asked to pet it, they said ok, I gushed how cute and sweet the dog was how I wish I could have one. Apparently this was very annoying to one of the guys and he made a snipey comment and off they went. Simply strange, who gets like that when someone is complimenting your dogs cuteness. I live in Denver now and on the rare occasion that I ask to pet someones dog (there are lots of dogs here) I've never had someone act that way, either I give the dog a few pats or it turns into a little conversation.

Another thing, I always had 1-2 roomates while in Va and that didn't help much either. It was better than living alone. I think I found the best people I could, but it was disappointing how many of the people I lived with were fairweather friends. Clearly that could happen anywhere, but considering how many different types of people I lived with over the years it's sad how uninterested they are in others, unless you have something they need like a job connection. A lot of these people were not originally from Va/DC but a lot of them were satisfied living in that area and so they fit into that
type- A unfriendly, know it all, type that does well in Nova.

God, I am so glad that I got out of there. I moved to Denver and it is much better socially. People here are friendly, they talk back to you, they are polite, they can carry a conversation, they don't make you feel. I'm still shocked on a daily basis at how friendly people are here b/c I got used to being around unfriendliness. This city is very different and is a much better match for me. No place is perfect, but that's fine, I just need to be around social and caring people and I'm good. I know it sounds silly, but this little thing that happened at the supermarket here sticks out in my mind. I saw a guy searching through the strawberries and I let him know there were more in another section that were in better shape. He responded in a normal, friendly way, but when I first got here I was not used to people responding in a normal human way. He even came up to me later to say thanx. It's little things like that, that make life pleasant.

So d-fens, it sounds like Va is not a good match for you, I would highly suggest not sticking it out and trying to move. I know from my experience that sticking it out and trying to make it work there, when it doesn't work for you, does not make it get any better. I went out of my way to meet people there and it did not help. Me and Nova weren't a good match. Believe me, I knew it from the first summer I lived there, but I didn't know I was going to get sick with a chronic illness. If you feel like it's not for you, chances are good that you are right. If the people there seem off to you, they are. I even knew several people that are from that area, grew up there, stayed b/c that's where their family is etc. and they said they hate it and have a difficult time meeting people. There are plenty of other places out there to live that have characteristics that will suit you better. The only reason I could imagine staying in that area is b/c of the money, or to build your resume, or get more education, but if you are paying high rent it's not even worth it. I hope things work out for you and if you can stick it out for a few years, make the best of it. You can try to meet people and you might stumble upon a few good friends, it's hard to find there vs. other places I've lived. If you stay, your best bet is to try really hard to find a couple good friends, it will make your time more bearable. Let us know how it works out for you!

To ScranBarre, I'm sorry to hear things haven't worked out as well as you hoped. I remember reading a lot of your posts when you were looking for an apt. and very excited to move to va. I distinctly remeber b/c I wanted to give you my impression, but I also thought I would get knocked around for giving a negative point of view. Also I didn't want to rain on your parade. I wondered how it would work out for you b/c it's so different when you are visiting the area vs. living there. Va/Dc looks good, sounds good, lots of things to do etc. but imo, when it comes down to it, is not a fun or enriching place to live. Too much stress and my main grievence is the unfriendliness. I hope things work out for you as well and that you figure out a happier place to live. Don't worry about people ganging up on you, it's your experience and if your not happy with it, that's your experience. You're not alone. Good Luck

Oh well, appears that you've moved on to a place that's better for you. Perhaps that will be the case for Alanboy and ScranBarre one day, too.

Sounds like you experienced the NoVa/DC version of the "Seattle Freeze," which is a huge, ongoing topic on the Seattle, Washington sub-forum. I think any place that predominantly attracts a large, transient, well-educated population of highly skilled workers from around the country (indeed, around the world) can be a tough environment from some newcomers. NYers can be brash, but the area has a much larger working class, and the default code of behavior there is generally informal, loud and brash (at the same time, it can also be somewhat delusional, as when hyper-rich Wall Street types shoot the breeze with deli workers and car fleet drivers and pretend to be on the same economic or social footing, when they clearly are not).

DC/NoVa doesn't have that same working class tradition, so a lot of the newcomers really aren't sure how to act - the default code of behavior amongst strangers and mere acquaintances here is often a restrained politeness that borders on chilliness. Some people never get over their unhappiness with that attitude and the fact that it can take longer to make friends here than perhaps in other regions. On the other hand, there really are a lot of smart people doing interesting things in this area, so it may be worth making the effort.

[Alanboy395]

Originally Posted by car54

Sheesh, you make it sound like NOVA is a huge prison!

I've left the region hundreds of times on trips, etc....not once have I ever been detained at the border. None of the routes into the region are one-way that I know of. Never once been questioned at the airport or train station about why I was leaving.

I guarantee it will be the same for you!

To be honest I didnt take any vacations from 2006 until Sept 08. Yep NoVAns, I spent EVERY DAY in Northern VA for over 2 years. Maybe that's why I felt so trapped.

I'm still happy to escape though.

[blueorbitz]

Originally Posted by JEB77

I think any place that predominantly attracts a large, transient, well-educated population of highly skilled workers from around the country (indeed, around the world) can be a tough environment from some newcomers.

Why is it that you believe that an area that attracts a well educated population of highly skilled workers would pose a tough environment? Why? Smart people don't have to be socially backward. Smart people don't have to be rude and arrogant. Highly educated people do not have to be unfriendly, unsociable and lacking in humor. Like I said in my example, my friend visiting from NYC found even the homeless people in the area to be uptight.

Your not so subtle implications that I must have come from a lower working class in New York and that is what the problem was deftly illustrates the Dc/Va attitude that I had to escape from. Thank you for clearly demonstrating my points.

[anonymous703]

I went to college in DC, moved out to NOVA, and left in 2004. I was h-a-p-p-y to be gone. But then I recently relocated for a job, and it wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it was. I actually kinda like it, although it's far from perfect.

[JEB77]

Originally Posted by blueorbitz

Why is it that you believe that an area that attracts a well educated population of highly skilled workers would pose a tough environment? Why? Smart people don't have to be socially backward. Smart people don't have to be rude and arrogant. Highly educated people do not have to be unfriendly, unsociable and lacking in humor. Like I said in my example, my friend visiting from NYC found even the homeless people in the area to be uptight.

Your not so subtle implications that I must have come from a lower working class in New York and that is what the problem was deftly illustrates the Dc/Va attitude that I had to escape from. Thank you for clearly demonstrating my points.

Perhaps with threads like this or posts like yours it's best not to respond at all, and just let those with a need to vent post for the benefit of the choir - large or small - that holds similar views.

When I see people label most of an area's inhabitants as uptight, rude and arrogant, I tend to think that their observations have far more to do with how that individual interacts, for better or worse, with the local environment than some inherent character flaw in the majority of the individuals living in a particular area.

For better or worse, NoVa's distinguishing characteristic over the past 20-30 years has been a huge increase in population and private-sector growth (much, admittedly, tied to the Federal Government) that has brought many well-educated, high-achieving, flat-out busy people to an area with crowded roads. These arrivals come from all over the country (indeed, all over the world) set the tone for the area, and they don't necessarily have a common set of social references. If people aren't sure how to act with each other, the default behavior tends to be reserved and chilly until people get to know each other better. For some residents - for example, workers in professions where there is a lot of interaction with other professionals, parents who have opportunities to volunteer with schools and youth sports, singles who find an outlet here to explore a special interest with other like-minded individuals - they get to meet people at a deeper level quickly and the "chilliness" of the area fades into the background. But I have no doubt that, for some others, they never have the ability or opportunity to make those connections in a busy area like this, and all they perceive is the "chilliness," whether they live here six months or eight years.

In comparison, a place like New York has been a big place for a much longer period of time. It gets lots of newcomers, but they don't overwhelm New York, which has its own, recognizable identity. Someone can move to New York City - where, by the way, the homeless are not only often uptight, but also totally deranged - and within a few months feel like they are fitting in by adopting certain patterns of behavior, speech and movement. It's much harder to decode a place like NoVa in its current configuration.

[Flamingo13]

Exactly! I've posted many times here that I think much of the way you are treated is how you treat or come across to others. I've probably spoken to many here but didn't know it - I talk to everyone and have never once been snubbed.

[ScranBarre]

Originally Posted by Alanboy395

Thankfully, ScranBarre, d-fens, and myself provide a great counter balance.

Unfortunately we're not welcome on this forum though. Unless you're firmly entrenched within the "NoVA is sunshine and puppies that defecate ice cream" camp you're not going to make any successful in-roads on this sub-forum, as I have learned. There's a pretty strong "cliquish" pack mentality here, and I find that this is NOT present on many other sub-forums here on City-Data.

NoVA works for many people, but the problem is that so many people become so jaded by all of the heaping ego-inflating praises being bestowed upon them on a regular basis (i.e. Loudoun County being tops in the nation for wealthy young singles, Arlington being one of the "Best Places", Fairfax County having one of the nation's best public school systems, Virginia being the best state for business, etc., etc.) that they completely ignore and disavow the region's many inherent problems, not the least of which is a transportation crisis that has led us to become the nation's second most congested area with no relief in sight (don't expect much help from an incoming Republican governor who wants to spend like a sailor on both transportation AND education during a recession without a tax increase). Some may follow Normie's lead and say "just don't let the traffic bother you", but if you add up a lifetime of congested rush-hour commutes in our area and then calculate the amount of time lost sitting in traffic jams you'll feel terribly to know you can never restore those minutes back into our life---minutes where you could have spent an additional few dinners out with your spouse before he or she died or visited your parents a few more times at a nursing home.

The region really DOES have that "Seattle Freeze: Lite" element to it, whether or not some of you would like to admit that. There's so many people here with Harvard MBAs, J.D.'s from Cornell, etc. all vying for their own in-roads to become the "big fish in the big pond" that many of us who don't honestly care about self-importance often feel snubbed because we don't possess those same uber-competitive qualities. I would have been perfectly content moving here and driving my old beater Ford Contour around, but then I'd have to feel very self-conscious about "keeping up appearances" here, lest the majority of my peer group here judge me for not having an iPod, not being able to afford to vacation, wearing clothes from Target, driving a 12-year-old car, etc.

Yes, there is indeed an element of materialism/conspicuous consumption amongst many major metropolitan areas, but I suppose I'm in the minority that feels as if Northern Virginia offers too few benefits to outweigh its negatives, hence why I won't be here permanently. I just don't see a very good "bang for your buck" factor here if you are childless and don't care about the "top school system" or don't want 90% of your obituary to detail where you worked, as is the case with most I read in the Washington Post. Surely there must be more to life than sitting in traffic to get to a job that you define yourself by that barely bays the rent on a run-down 1-BR apartment outside the Beltway while always dreaming "maybe tomorrow will be better", is there not?

I'm aware I'm the "bogeyman" of this sub-forum. It's not a title I wear valiantly, but it's one I'm WILLING to have bestowed upon me if others can have the opportunity to see that NoVA isn't only "peaches and cream." For those of you who cashed in during the housing bubble, were fortunate enough to find someone to love and to love you back, raised children through above-average public schools, etc. I wish you nothing but the best. To people like me who are earning much less than the median household income of the region, are hopelessly single, have no plans to have children, and have a hellish commute to work I'm not going to waste my entire life wishing "someday maybe I'll be happy here." If I've lived in Reston now for six months and still don't see the "charm" or "quaint character" of the community, then I don't suppose I ever will.

Like others I, too, have been involved in attending community meetings, joining a church, helping out at the library, doing charity 5K races, and generally TRYING to look at the glass half-full with Northern Virginia. In the end I find that the weekends don't even offer enough respite from the daily weekday grind here as more often than not I find myself stuck in traffic on Saturdays or having rude self-important soccer moms on their cell phones ramming me with their shopping carts on Sundays at Giant. If you have no family here, have a large network of distant friends with very few "close" friendships (as is the case with me), have been burned out already by the dating pool, commute in heavy traffic everyday to go to a job where you are underpaid and feel humiliated by a condescending supervisor, and go home to find yet more maintenance issues in a 1-BR apartment in a suburb that doesn't even know if it wants to be a "real" city or not then you just start asking yourself "what benefits do I really derive from living here?" I can't say I can answer that question fully and with certainty that by suffering now with severe depression and a general sense of living in an area where I "don't belong" that I'll ever see the justification for $1,200/month rental prices on shoddy 1-BR apartments or living amongst people who will gladly tax themselves to death at the polls to fund fancier schools but who will not vote to spend one damn dime to fix the transportation crisis.

I suppose in my own particular case I'm internally conflicted. I'm an educated white-collar who prefers the down-to-earth company of blue-collars, which are very few and far between here. I don't want EVERY conversation I have to be dominated by global affairs, stock indicators, political initiatives, trust funds, etc., etc. Yes, those are fun to discuss for debating purposes, but all in all I get the sense that many in NoVA like to talk just to impress others with their intelligence and their advanced degree backgrounds. The reason why I've become so infatuated with Pittsburgh is that it is a city that I could earn $40,000 and live comfortably instead of shivering. It is a city where people don't judge you if you have scuffs on your shoes or a car that rattles. It is a city where each block of each neighborhood has a story to tell over how it was melded and shaped over the course of 150 years whereas here in Reston a 1960s-era art-deco shopping center is called "historic." It is a city where you can be middle-class AND afford to live ALONE in the city proper. You can't do that in this area. For me Pittsburgh just really WORKS, and I know the Pittsburgh-haters on this sub-forum will remind me "it lacks diversity", "jobs suck", "no culture", yada, yada, yada, but all in all diversity is increasing in Pittsburgh, there are plenty of jobs that pay COMFORTABLE salaries for MIDDLE-CLASS lifestyles (i.e. not a 4 BR/3.5 bath townhome in Ashburn with an Audi in the driveway), historic appeal lurks around every corner, and the population nosedive was actually a blessing in disguise because city residents get to enjoy many cultural/recreational/sporting opportunities designed for a city of twice its stature---only now with half the crowding.

Different strokes for different folks. I don't fault people for loving NoVA unabashedly, even though they fault me and others for being so foolish as to dare to point out any reasons why we are personally unhappy and depressed here. I really tried to come into Northern Virginia with a cautiously optimistic outlook. I really did. It makes it all that much painful and makes me feel like all that much more of a failure to have to tell myself that I'm going to end up having wasted 1-2 years here altogether because I hadn't done enough research, relying instead upon all of the "good things" I heard about NoVA that drowned out most of the negatives. I knew about the traffic and high housing prices when I moved here. I didn't get a good enough sense of that "Seattle Freeze: Lite", materialism, lack of historic appeal to the area, dreadful dating pool where everyone only wants to hook-up, etc., all of which have served to weigh down upon my soul like a festering cancer.

[JEB77]

Originally Posted by ScranBarre

Unfortunately we're not welcome on this forum though. Unless you're firmly entrenched within the "NoVA is sunshine and puppies that defecate ice cream" camp you're not going to make any successful in-roads on this sub-forum, as I have learned. There's a pretty strong "cliquish" pack mentality here, and I find that this is NOT present on many other sub-forums here on City-Data.

I think it's rather the opposite - you are welcome in this area and on this forum, but you won't be satisfied until everyone agrees with your point of view, and that is never going to happen. It often seems like you want to treat this sub-forum like "Where the Wild Things Are," where you get to be Max.

Originally Posted by ScranBarre

NoVA works for many people, but the problem is that so many people become so jaded by all of the heaping ego-inflating praises being bestowed upon them on a regular basis (i.e. Loudoun County being tops in the nation for wealthy young singles, Arlington being one of the "Best Places", Fairfax County having one of the nation's best public school systems, Virginia being the best state for business, etc., etc.) that they completely ignore and disavow the region's many inherent problems, not the least of which is a transportation crisis that has led us to become the nation's second most congested area with no relief in sight (don't expect much help from an incoming Republican governor who wants to spend like a sailor on both transportation AND education during a recession without a tax increase). Some may follow Normie's lead and say "just don't let the traffic bother you", but if you add up a lifetime of congested rush-hour commutes in our area and then calculate the amount of time lost sitting in traffic jams you'll feel terribly to know you can never restore those minutes back into our life---minutes where you could have spent an additional few dinners out with your spouse before he or she died or visited your parents a few more times at a nursing home.

We have very bad traffic congestion here. We didn't anticipate so many newcomers and the planning for all the newcomers was inadequate. At some point, we will either make improvements in the transportation infrastructure and physical environment, or it will reach a point where the same types of businesses and newcomers who have flocked here for decades will say "no thanks" and seek out different areas. That doesn't mean, of course, that putting up with traffic has to be quite as dramatic and life-draining an experience as you suggest. You could buy a few language tapes and become fluent in another language while sitting in traffic here - and then you'd actually have opportunities in this area or elsewhere to put that skill to good use later on.

Originally Posted by ScranBarre

The region really DOES have that "Seattle Freeze: Lite" element to it, whether or not some of you would like to admit that. There's so many people here with Harvard MBAs, J.D.'s from Cornell, etc. all vying for their own in-roads to become the "big fish in the big pond" that many of us who don't honestly care about self-importance often feel snubbed because we don't possess those same uber-competitive qualities. I would have been perfectly content moving here and driving my old beater Ford Contour around, but then I'd have to feel very self-conscious about "keeping up appearances" here, lest the majority of my peer group here judge me for not having an iPod, not being able to afford to vacation, wearing clothes from Target, driving a 12-year-old car, etc.

I think the comparison to what people call the "Seattle Freeze" is probably a decent one, but isn't it an oxymoron to say that people who "honestly don't care about self-importance often feel snubbed" in this area? Either you care about such things or you don't - and, in a big area like this, there are ALWAYS (unless, perhaps, you live at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue) going to be people who have better resumes, more impressive job titles or much higher incomes than you do (or maybe all three). You can come to terms with this now here, or you can come to terms with it later somewhere else. What I find self-deluding in these threads is when posters claim not to care about such things because THEY - unlike the phonies or poseurs who surround them - are "real," "down-to-earth" people with the right priorities, when they obviously seem to care quite a bit about how others go about living their lives. Who exactly is passing judgment on whom here?

Originally Posted by ScranBarre

Yes, there is indeed an element of materialism/conspicuous consumption amongst many major metropolitan areas, but I suppose I'm in the minority that feels as if Northern Virginia offers too few benefits to outweigh its negatives, hence why I won't be here permanently. I just don't see a very good "bang for your buck" factor here if you are childless and don't care about the "top school system" or don't want 90% of your obituary to detail where you worked, as is the case with most I read in the Washington Post. Surely there must be more to life than sitting in traffic to get to a job that you define yourself by that barely bays the rent on a run-down 1-BR apartment outside the Beltway while always dreaming "maybe tomorrow will be better", is there not?

These could all be good reasons to relocate to another area. On the other hand, there are certain professions where people really need to be in this area or a handful of other areas to make a living, as well as professions where people can simply earn much more here than they could in other areas. In the legal field, for example, every major law firm originally based in Pittsburgh has set up offices in DC and now earns a significant percentage of its total revenues from its DC office. On the other hand, if you have widely marketable skills in a field that is not particularly high-paying here, and you don't care much about things like public schools or access to the same breadth of cultural amenities, there may be other areas that are much better fits. We have plenty of people here already, and places like Cleveland, Pittsburgh and St. Louis really would benefit if more young people with energy stayed or moved there.

Originally Posted by ScranBarre

I'm aware I'm the "bogeyman" of this sub-forum. It's not a title I wear valiantly, but it's one I'm WILLING to have bestowed upon me if others can have the opportunity to see that NoVA isn't only "peaches and cream." For those of you who cashed in during the housing bubble, were fortunate enough to find someone to love and to love you back, raised children through above-average public schools, etc. I wish you nothing but the best. To people like me who are earning much less than the median household income of the region, are hopelessly single, have no plans to have children, and have a hellish commute to work I'm not going to waste my entire life wishing "someday maybe I'll be happy here." If I've lived in Reston now for six months and still don't see the "charm" or "quaint character" of the community, then I don't suppose I ever will.

Scran - It's a straw-man argument to portray yourself as a martyr and claim that most posters are trying to sell a "peaches and cream" version of the area. You shouldn't be surprised if those who've settled in the area and worked their way up over the years, or have already lived in other areas and seen that they also have their own problems to deal with, have a different perspective.

Originally Posted by ScranBarre

Like others I, too, have been involved in attending community meetings, joining a church, helping out at the library, doing charity 5K races, and generally TRYING to look at the glass half-full with Northern Virginia. In the end I find that the weekends don't even offer enough respite from the daily weekday grind here as more often than not I find myself stuck in traffic on Saturdays or having rude self-important soccer moms on their cell phones ramming me with their shopping carts on Sundays at Giant. If you have no family here, have a large network of distant friends with very few "close" friendships (as is the case with me), have been burned out already by the dating pool, commute in heavy traffic everyday to go to a job where you are underpaid and feel humiliated by a condescending supervisor, and go home to find yet more maintenance issues in a 1-BR apartment in a suburb that doesn't even know if it wants to be a "real" city or not then you just start asking yourself "what benefits do I really derive from living here?" I can't say I can answer that question fully and with certainty that by suffering now with severe depression and a general sense of living in an area where I "don't belong" that I'll ever see the justification for $1,200/month rental prices on shoddy 1-BR apartments or living amongst people who will gladly tax themselves to death at the polls to fund fancier schools but who will not vote to spend one damn dime to fix the transportation crisis.

I suppose in my own particular case I'm internally conflicted. I'm an educated white-collar who prefers the down-to-earth company of blue-collars, which are very few and far between here. I don't want EVERY conversation I have to be dominated by global affairs, stock indicators, political initiatives, trust funds, etc., etc. Yes, those are fun to discuss for debating purposes, but all in all I get the sense that many in NoVA like to talk just to impress others with their intelligence and their advanced degree backgrounds. The reason why I've become so infatuated with Pittsburgh is that it is a city that I could earn $40,000 and live comfortably instead of shivering. It is a city where people don't judge you if you have scuffs on your shoes or a car that rattles. It is a city where each block of each neighborhood has a story to tell over how it was melded and shaped over the course of 150 years whereas here in Reston a 1960s-era art-deco shopping center is called "historic." It is a city where you can be middle-class AND afford to live ALONE in the city proper. You can't do that in this area. For me Pittsburgh just really WORKS, and I know the Pittsburgh-haters on this sub-forum will remind me "it lacks diversity", "jobs suck", "no culture", yada, yada, yada, but all in all diversity is increasing in Pittsburgh, there are plenty of jobs that pay COMFORTABLE salaries for MIDDLE-CLASS lifestyles (i.e. not a 4 BR/3.5 bath townhome in Ashburn with an Audi in the driveway), historic appeal lurks around every corner, and the population nosedive was actually a blessing in disguise because city residents get to enjoy many cultural/recreational/sporting opportunities designed for a city of twice its stature---only now with half the crowding.

Different strokes for different folks. I don't fault people for loving NoVA unabashedly, even though they fault me and others for being so foolish as to dare to point out any reasons why we are personally unhappy and depressed here. I really tried to come into Northern Virginia with a cautiously optimistic outlook. I really did. It makes it all that much painful and makes me feel like all that much more of a failure to have to tell myself that I'm going to end up having wasted 1-2 years here altogether because I hadn't done enough research, relying instead upon all of the "good things" I heard about NoVA that drowned out most of the negatives. I knew about the traffic and high housing prices when I moved here. I didn't get a good enough sense of that "Seattle Freeze: Lite", materialism, lack of historic appeal to the area, dreadful dating pool where everyone only wants to hook-up, etc., all of which have served to weigh down upon my soul like a festering cancer.

A lot of what you're posting here is very Scran-specific and personal, and you often claim that posters are engaging in personal attacks on you, if we don't buy it hook, line and sinker. All I will suggest is please spend some serious time in Pittsburgh BEFORE you move there. An on-line infatuation with a new city (and boy do you have it bad for Pittsburgh) is as likely to result in disappointment as any other on-line or long-distance relationship. There are lots of things to like about Pittsburgh, but you do need to ask yourself long and hard what it is that you know about Pittsburgh that all the people who've moved away from Pittsburgh don't know or didn't appreciate. Any older industrial city that has lost over 1/2 of its population over the past 50 years is going to have a lower cost of living, more affordable real estate, a somewhat battered self-image and a host of social issues.