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Old 04-09-2010, 03:32 PM
 
461 posts, read 907,315 times
Reputation: 116

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mississippimagnolia View Post
No. Just no. That's not how our system works.
Could you explain? I"m willing to listen. You can read English writers talk about this a couple of hundred years ago, and it's the same system, and it hasn't changed.
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Old 04-11-2010, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Northwestern VA
982 posts, read 3,479,315 times
Reputation: 569
I'm not surprised and am somewhat fearful of police in the Northern VA area. Between egos and lack of exposure to things that are "different", I feel many officers in this area make decisions based on fear rather than with with logic. Extremely dangerous for us, potential to be a huge liability for them.

As a Realtor, there are nights when I have to work later than what most people work...it comes with the territory. I was leaving my office one night just before midnight. I was pulled over for absolutely no reason. I was driving a black honda pilot that had my name, number, and website plastered all over the back windows...definitely not threatening. The officer had his vehicle and flashlights so brightly lit up that I literally could not see what he looked like or if he was even a real officer. I put my window down an inch and a half and he had the nerve to tell me that my actions offended him. He said I was treating him like he couldn't be trusted....if the shoe fits. I asked him why I was pulled over, he never answered. Instead he insisted that I put my window down all the way and I did. At that point he shone his light through my car, not sure what he was looking for. He turned his flashlight off...and he really was an officer. He started asking me lots of questions: why I was out so late? Didn't I know it wasn't safe to be out alone? When am I going home? Do I live in the area? He even had the nerve to ask me how business was going for me. It was at that point my daughter, who had been asleep in the back seat, sat up and asked why we weren't moving. The officer told me to have a good night, drive safely, then he went back to his car. He never asked for my license or registration, nor did he ever tell me why I was pulled over. And no, I didn't get a name or badge number, I was scared to death. All I could think about was what may have happened if I didn't bring one of my kids with me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FairfaxGuy73 View Post
The police, magistrate, prosecutor, and judge are supposed to act as a check and balance. In many jurisdictions, police can be overly aggressive, but when the case reaches the "grownups" such as prosecutor or judge, the charges can be dropped, or an innocent verdict can be found. The problem is that they are part of the same system, need each others cooperation, and it is to their benefit to scratch each others backs. Many times, once you are charged, you are essentially convicted.

How odd does the Naked Man case sound? A woman cuts through on a path next to a guy's house. She sees him naked inside of his house from 83 feet away, shows him her crude lack of class by flipping him off, and throws a jacket over her son's head and calls the police. And, uh oh, she happens to be the wife of a cop.

Later, police bust into his house, stick guns in his face, and arrest him in bed on felony charges. A Fairfax judge compares him to John Dillinger and convicts him. What is unclear is whether they forced him to walk home naked after he was arrested. At any rate, the walk home got him kicked out of the house by the landlord, fired from his job, and left unemployed until present.

Now that his life has been ruined, a jury pronounces him innocent in a mere 29 minutes. Juries can also be influenced by the authorities, but in the end, they are not part of the system.

Is this normal procedure? Do misdemeanor charges always get bumped up to felonies? If I let my grass grow too long, will someone bust into my house and threaten to kill me? Just asking. It's a fair question under the circumstances.

Last edited by Tish Thompson; 04-11-2010 at 11:30 AM.. Reason: clarification
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Old 04-11-2010, 12:26 PM
 
461 posts, read 907,315 times
Reputation: 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tish Thompson View Post
The officer had his vehicle and flashlights so brightly lit up that I literally could not see what he looked like or if he was even a real officer. I put my window down an inch and a half and he had the nerve to tell me that my actions offended him.
All of the safety experts say that if an unmarked police car pulls you over, you are supposed to drive to a well lit, relatively safe area. The same should go in your situation, and you may not even know if it was marked. I hope that Fairfax County respects this, but judging from the officer's response, it sounds like they don't. What if you had tried to drive to a well-lit area? Would he have thrown you down in handcuffs, arrested you on the spot, and made you fight for your clean police record and possibly career?

I have guns for self-defense in the house and try to be very calm and responsible in my response to noises. If someone had entered my house without a warrant or permission and been yelling "police," I wouldn't have shot. If I had been shocked from sleep or even not, I probably would have had a gun in my hand when they charged in. Not a good situation, and not necessary in the Naked Man's case.

I may have said this before, but there was no apology or affirmation that the police would not do the same thing again as they did to the Naked Man. If you live in Fairfax County, you could contact your county supervisor Board of Supervisors District Maps*- Fairfax County, Virginia . Of course every county in VA has supervisors. You can also just call the police district station where it happened District Stations*- Fairfax County, Virginia . I had a very good experience with police when contacting the station, but then I wasn't complaining about an officer either. Just remember to think about what you're going to say and what you want. Have the have time, locaton, etc. about the incident. Also, to keep it short and be constructive.

You can also walk in to a police district station and introduce yourself to the captain, try to make friends, and also explain the situation. This may be the beast approach if you're a realtor. Having a positive relationship with police would be a good thing. It would help you and also make them aware that they can't treat everyone like that. If you're inclined, you might want to try this, especially if it could happen again.
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Old 04-11-2010, 01:59 PM
 
1,183 posts, read 2,882,722 times
Reputation: 1079
Quote:
Originally Posted by FairfaxGuy73 View Post
Could you explain? I"m willing to listen. You can read English writers talk about this a couple of hundred years ago, and it's the same system, and it hasn't changed.
Quote:
The police, magistrate, prosecutor, and judge are supposed to act as a check and balance. In many jurisdictions, police can be overly aggressive, but when the case reaches the "grownups" such as prosecutor or judge, the charges can be dropped, or an innocent verdict can be found. The problem is that they are part of the same system, need each others cooperation, and it is to their benefit to scratch each others backs. Many times, once you are charged, you are essentially convicted.
There are bad cops. But there are are also plenty (I might argue more based on my experience in working in law) of bad judges.

When the charges reach the prosecutor, he has to make a decision. Should the case go forward? Can we reach a plea agreement and save everyone time and money? Is there even enough legally obtained evidence? Were mistakes made that will allow the accused to walk away despite the evidence?

And there are no "innocent" verdicts. People are found "not guilty" not innocent. Many, many, many, many people who are found "not guilty" are so very guilty. Most of the time either the prosecution did a lousy job presenting the case, or law enforcement screwed up in the way they made the arrest or collected the evidence.

Quote:
How odd does the Naked Man case sound? A woman cuts through on a path next to a guy's house. She sees him naked inside of his house from 83 feet away, shows him her crude lack of class by flipping him off, and throws a jacket over her son's head and calls the police. And, uh oh, she happens to be the wife of a cop.

Later, police bust into his house, stick guns in his face, and arrest him in bed on felony charges. A Fairfax judge compares him to John Dillinger and convicts him. What is unclear is whether they forced him to walk home naked after he was arrested. At any rate, the walk home got him kicked out of the house by the landlord, fired from his job, and left unemployed until present.
All of this is based on the facts of the case as you've heard. There are always three sides to every case. The state's, the accused's, and the truth.

Quote:
Now that his life has been ruined, a jury pronounces him innocent in a mere 29 minutes. Juries can also be influenced by the authorities, but in the end, they are not part of the system.
Again, the jury did not find him innocent. They simply found that there was not enough evidence presented to find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. That's a really difficult threshold to meet.

Quote:
Is this normal procedure? Do misdemeanor charges always get bumped up to felonies?
No. But if new evidence is discovered, then new charges can be filed.

Quote:
If I let my grass grow too long, will someone bust into my house and threaten to kill me? Just asking. It's a fair question under the circumstances.
Yes. If you let your grass grow too long, the police will bust into your house without a warrant and threaten to kill you. Because the law allows for the death penalty for crimes againt landscape.

I know nothing at all about this case. But I do know how our criminal justice system works. Of course we have bad judges, cops, prosecutors, etc.... But we have many, many more hardworking judges, cops, and prosecutors. They don't look to create more work for themselves.

I don't think "checks and balances" is really the best way to describe the criminal justice system in American today. Just as an example: It makes no sense for a police officer to investigate and arrest a subject that he doesn't believe will be convicted. It would be a complete waste of his time. The case wouldn't likely ever see a courtroom. It makes no sense for a prosecutor to waste his time on a case he won't win. And remember, he has to prove his case beyond any reasonable doubt. And it makes no sense for a judge to sentence a convicted criminal inappropriately because he knows the possibility of appeal exists.

If anything, the system is swayed to allow the defendant every possible chance of being found not guilty.
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Old 04-11-2010, 03:07 PM
 
4,709 posts, read 12,637,846 times
Reputation: 3813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tish Thompson View Post
I'm not surprised and am somewhat fearful of police in the Northern VA area. Between egos and lack of exposure to things that are "different", I feel many officers in this area make decisions based on fear rather than with with logic. Extremely dangerous for us, potential to be a huge liability for them.

As a Realtor, there are nights when I have to work later than what most people work...it comes with the territory. I was leaving my office one night just before midnight. I was pulled over for absolutely no reason. I was driving a black honda pilot that had my name, number, and website plastered all over the back windows...definitely not threatening. The officer had his vehicle and flashlights so brightly lit up that I literally could not see what he looked like or if he was even a real officer. I put my window down an inch and a half and he had the nerve to tell me that my actions offended him. He said I was treating him like he couldn't be trusted....if the shoe fits. I asked him why I was pulled over, he never answered. Instead he insisted that I put my window down all the way and I did. At that point he shone his light through my car, not sure what he was looking for. He turned his flashlight off...and he really was an officer. He started asking me lots of questions: why I was out so late? Didn't I know it wasn't safe to be out alone? When am I going home? Do I live in the area? He even had the nerve to ask me how business was going for me. It was at that point my daughter, who had been asleep in the back seat, sat up and asked why we weren't moving. The officer told me to have a good night, drive safely, then he went back to his car. He never asked for my license or registration, nor did he ever tell me why I was pulled over. And no, I didn't get a name or badge number, I was scared to death. All I could think about was what may have happened if I didn't bring one of my kids with me.

Well, you never know why the police pull over a particular car.

Years ago, I pulled into a gas station and as I was pumping the gas, two police cars came into the station and blocked me in. Next thing I knew, four cops were pointing handguns and shotguns at me. Obviously, I was unnerved at the whole thing. After a while one of the cops handed me my drivers' license back and apologized for the inconvenience. It turned out that, moments earlier, a guy had gone nuts at the Fairfax Courthouse, grabbed cop's gun, shot three cops, and fled in a blue Ford sedan....identical to my car!

So, maybe they were looking for a suspect in a black Honda Pilot?
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Old 04-11-2010, 06:13 PM
 
Location: Virginia-Shenandoah Valley
7,670 posts, read 14,184,477 times
Reputation: 7464
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tish Thompson View Post
I'm not surprised and am somewhat fearful of police in the Northern VA area. Between egos and lack of exposure to things that are "different", I feel many officers in this area make decisions based on fear rather than with with logic. Extremely dangerous for us, potential to be a huge liability for them.

As a Realtor, there are nights when I have to work later than what most people work...it comes with the territory. I was leaving my office one night just before midnight. I was pulled over for absolutely no reason. I was driving a black honda pilot that had my name, number, and website plastered all over the back windows...definitely not threatening. The officer had his vehicle and flashlights so brightly lit up that I literally could not see what he looked like or if he was even a real officer. I put my window down an inch and a half and he had the nerve to tell me that my actions offended him. He said I was treating him like he couldn't be trusted....if the shoe fits. I asked him why I was pulled over, he never answered. Instead he insisted that I put my window down all the way and I did. At that point he shone his light through my car, not sure what he was looking for. He turned his flashlight off...and he really was an officer. He started asking me lots of questions: why I was out so late? Didn't I know it wasn't safe to be out alone? When am I going home? Do I live in the area? He even had the nerve to ask me how business was going for me. It was at that point my daughter, who had been asleep in the back seat, sat up and asked why we weren't moving. The officer told me to have a good night, drive safely, then he went back to his car. He never asked for my license or registration, nor did he ever tell me why I was pulled over. And no, I didn't get a name or badge number, I was scared to death. All I could think about was what may have happened if I didn't bring one of my kids with me.
Oh my freaking gawd. He had the nerve to make polite conversation. He, the officer, should have told you why he pulled you over but from everything you've said I can find little to fault him for. Once he had you pulled over (prime time DUI and criminal witching hours) he realized you were neither then likely tried to make things go easier for you. Of course if you started right away with the attitude because he was doing things by the book (all lights on for safety so he can go home alive at the end of the shift) then he may have been a little defensive first. Things like that happen when the officers are human. When robots start working the job then I'm certain it won't be asking how business is going.

Now back to the lights. I attended way too many officers funerals in my 30 years as a police officer and he likely didn't want to be a statistic. I know one officer who stopped a car for a minor speeding violation and the guy pulled a 44 magnum and shot at the officer when he used his flashlight to light up the inside of the car. Luckily the officer turned sideways and fell back and the shot skimmed across his vest. This shooter is now in prison for attempted murder of a LEO.

Just about every traffic stop done at night is done with the officer wondering "is the the person who wants to kills me?" Not a great feeling or thought but one that often keeps the officer alive when the proverbial crap hits the fan.
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Old 04-11-2010, 06:29 PM
 
461 posts, read 907,315 times
Reputation: 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigfoot424 View Post
Just about every traffic stop done at night is done with the officer wondering "is the the person who wants to kills me?"
It's not heartening to hear that police view every female with a sleeping child in her car as a potential violent offender to be shot. I would only suggest that police offer the same to law-abiding citizens that they allow for themselves. Why can't police leave room for citizens who are concerned for their own safety? A point that seems to be missed is that police are supposed to exist to protect _us_.
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Old 04-11-2010, 06:32 PM
 
461 posts, read 907,315 times
Reputation: 116
In fact, Bigfoot, the way you are treating this lady knowing your law enforcement background makes me think that there are a lot of no good officers out there who ought to be removed.
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Old 04-11-2010, 06:37 PM
 
461 posts, read 907,315 times
Reputation: 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by FairfaxGuy73 View Post
In fact, Bigfoot, the way you are treating this lady knowing your law enforcement background makes me think that there are a lot of no good officers out there who ought to be removed.
My above statement is not very fair. If you served in the Front Royal area, I would have to say that Fairfax cops are a BIG cut above, despite their aforementioned shortcomings.
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Old 04-11-2010, 06:50 PM
 
461 posts, read 907,315 times
Reputation: 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigfoot424 View Post
he realized you were neither then likely tried to make things go easier for you. Of course if you started right away with the attitude because he was doing things by the book hits the fan.
See, the cop did the lady a HUGE favor by not throwing her down in the mud and arresting her. We are very grateful that a law-abiding citizen wasn't denied possession of her own body and had her child taken away from her. For this, we offer a humble "Thank you. Oh, great overlord"
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