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Old 06-03-2010, 04:26 PM
 
Location: San Jose, CA
1,318 posts, read 3,064,575 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEB77 View Post
However, a strong Black student who considers applying to TJ next year may well have learned that, in the most recent year, only 4 of 187 Black applicants to TJ, or less than 1%, was admitted. I do wonder how it affects future applicants to have that information potentially in the back of their minds as they attend classes or sit for the TJ entrance exam.
I'm not trying to be antagonistic or anything, but I'm not sure if you're saying that a black applicant would find that discouraging, or if they would think better of themselves. I don't think there are many people who judge themselves based on what their race does (though admittedly I have seen some Asians act that way on the internet). So having other black applicants fail to get into TJ, should not discourage a particular applicant, afterall as long as they don't live in a bubble they would know that they are smarter than most people in their class. I personally don't see the world as an "us vs them" case when it comes to race, I find it interesting that a lot of posters here seem to though.
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Old 06-03-2010, 04:48 PM
 
5,071 posts, read 8,616,501 times
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Originally Posted by cardinal2007 View Post
I'm not trying to be antagonistic or anything, but I'm not sure if you're saying that a black applicant would find that discouraging, or if they would think better of themselves. I don't think there are many people who judge themselves based on what their race does (though admittedly I have seen some Asians act that way on the internet). So having other black applicants fail to get into TJ, should not discourage a particular applicant, afterall as long as they don't live in a bubble they would know that they are smarter than most people in their class. I personally don't see the world as an "us vs them" case when it comes to race, I find it interesting that a lot of posters here seem to though.
I don't think your post is antagonistic, and I would imagine that it really depends on each individual. Some Black students aware that so few Black students are being admitted to TJ might view that fact as a motivating factor. In some cases, it might discourage Black students from bothering to apply or negatively affect their performance on an admissions test. In some cases, it might have no effect at all, as you posit. However, with the number of Black students attending TJ so low, I don't think it's inappropriate to consider the question.
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Old 06-03-2010, 04:57 PM
 
1,403 posts, read 1,847,932 times
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Would it be too incendiary, at this point, to ask what exactly being "black" means? We keep using terms like "black students" -- is this kind of categorization based on skin color, genetics, culture, self-identification or what?
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Old 06-03-2010, 07:10 PM
 
5,071 posts, read 8,616,501 times
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Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
Would it be too incendiary, at this point, to ask what exactly being "black" means? We keep using terms like "black students" -- is this kind of categorization based on skin color, genetics, culture, self-identification or what?

FCPS students are identified by FCPS as either American Indian/Alaskan, Asian, Black, Hawaiian/Pacific Islander, Hispanic, Multiracial or White. If a student or his/her parents do not self-identify a student as falling into any of these categories, the student is "Undesignated." Less than 1% of FCPS students are classified by FCPS as American Indian/Alaskan, Hawaiian/Pacific Islander and Undesignated.

I don't think your question is incendiary; however, being Black or, for that matter, White, Asian or Hispanic generally is not viewed in this region as an artificial construct. Since FCPS released the information on the most recent round of TJ admits, virtually every local newspaper, such as the Connection, has reported on the increasing number of Asian students and the declining number of Black students admitted to TJ.

Last edited by JD984; 06-03-2010 at 07:25 PM..
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Old 06-03-2010, 07:21 PM
 
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
14,131 posts, read 27,016,057 times
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I'm somewhat surprised that with the number of recent African/Caribbean immigrants, the proportion of black students hasn't increased somewhat. There should probably be some differentiation between slave descended blacks and those more recently from Africa and the Caribbean (like our president) since they come from entirely different socioeconomic, historical, and cultural backgrounds.
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Old 06-03-2010, 07:38 PM
 
132 posts, read 286,327 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
By the way, I find all these claims about "math/engineering" = less money than "law/investment banking" hilarious!

Investment banking can be extremely quantitatively oriented. I attended an Ivy League university years ago and many of my fellow students who studied engineering, math, physics and other "hard sciences" were actively recruited by investment banking and management consulting firms.

One of the hottest commodities in hedge fund personnel recruitment is someone with a Ph.D. from a high-end physics, mathematics or engineering program.

If one studies math or engineering, then studying law or business management at graduate level is not difficult (in fact, sometimes it is encouraged!). However, those with undergraduate degrees in English literature or even pre-law do not, as a rule, do well in the more quantitatively oriented graduate programs. To put another way, a solid undergraduate education in a "hard science" can give one choices. And I write this as a person who ran, ran away from "hard sciences" at university.
I agree. Having a solid foundation of math and engineering are very helpful in academic success. They are also useful and practical in the real economy. Ultimately the real economic growth must come from manufacturing real goods and essential services. But the problem is a PHD in physics can only make big money on wall street as an analyst working for some hedge fund managers. A PHD in physics working in a lab doing science experiments earns not much more than a law clerk. The situation is even worth for Biology PHDs working for NIH labs or univeristies as postdocs or research fellows. They make around 30 - 45K, which many people in this forum consider as below poverty around here.

This country will be in a rude awakening, if someday many of the engineering and science graduate students decide to go home after graduation. (The majority of the engineering and science graduate students are foreigners, and many of them are Asians)

Last edited by novajs; 06-03-2010 at 08:49 PM..
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Old 06-03-2010, 08:34 PM
 
Location: San Jose, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novajs View Post

This country is in a rude awakening, if someday many of the engineering and science graduate students decide to go home after graduation. (The majority of the engineering and science graduate students are foreigners, and many of them are Asians)
It wouldn't surprise me if that is already happening in a field like computer science there are many graduate students from China and India (I used to be in the PhD program for CS at Stanford), I would estimate that about half of the students when I started there were foreign born (not necessarily foreign students though), we have in the last few years made it harder for these students to stay in the country after graduating, while at the same time opportunities have expanded in their home countries, so while in the past it was almost guaranteed that these PhD graduates would stay in the US, that is becoming less true now. Though a friend of mine did manage to get a EB-1 visa pretty quick last year.

Many people have suggested that we try to focus on bringing up more domestic demand for entering such PhD programs, perhaps by focusing more on math and science earlier in education. But from the reactions of people on this forum, I guess that might be a no-go so to speak.
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Old 06-03-2010, 08:56 PM
 
1,403 posts, read 1,847,932 times
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Originally Posted by CAVA1990 View Post
I'm somewhat surprised that with the number of recent African/Caribbean immigrants, the proportion of black students hasn't increased somewhat. There should probably be some differentiation between slave descended blacks and those more recently from Africa and the Caribbean (like our president) since they come from entirely different socioeconomic, historical, and cultural backgrounds.
By that logic, SE Asians should be separately categorized from other "Asians" like Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Taiwanese and Indians. The poverty rate among Laotians, for example, is something like 50 percent.

One thing I never hear from affirmative action advocates is how underprivileged some Asian students are compared to middle class American blacks. They say they want more blacks at top schools for "diversity" yet ignore the fact that there are hardly any Laotians or Cambodians at such places. Frankly, they don't seem to care. Apparently some ethnic groups are more equal than others in the "diversity" game.

Moderator Cut

What happened to the Cult of the Individual Achievement in this country? That's why I came here and became a citizen, jumping through numerous difficult, bureaucratic and sometimes plain insane Kafka-esque hoops.

By the way, "CAVA1990" you still have not provided any evidence for your claim that Asian-Americans don't involve themseves in the larger community or charity.

Last edited by FindingZen; 06-04-2010 at 08:21 AM.. Reason: off-topic
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Old 06-03-2010, 09:03 PM
 
1,403 posts, read 1,847,932 times
Reputation: 451
Quote:
Originally Posted by novajs View Post
But the problem is a PHD in physics can only make big money on wall street as an analyst working for some hedge fund managers. A PHD in physics working in a lab doing science experiments earns not much more than a law clerk. The situation is even worth for Biology PHDs working for NIH labs or univeristies as postdocs or research fellows. They make around 30 - 45K, which many people in this forum consider as below poverty around here.

This country will be in a rude awakening, if someday many of the engineering and science graduate students decide to go home after graduation. (The majority of the engineering and science graduate students are foreigners, and many of them are Asians)
Well, then thank goodness this country is still such a magnet for the educated masses of other countries who see boundless opportunities for themsevels and their offspring here. Let them vote with their feet (legally).

As for the physicist working in a lab, I don't think they do it for the money. An entirely different motivation is at work here. Such scientists can also get jobs in other positions. They can be professors, textbook writers (very lucrative), financial analysts, lab rats, corporate researchers, etc. Some Asian parents actually like the prestige of being a scientist or simply a Ph.D. and don't care as much about income and such.

My point in all this was that, as we agreed, science/math education gives you options as well as excellent practical skills whereas most humanities do not. It's a sad indictment of even our vaunted university education system that most college graduates cannot do a simple regression analysis.
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Old 06-04-2010, 01:25 AM
 
3,164 posts, read 6,118,809 times
Reputation: 1264
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Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta View Post
Would it be too incendiary, at this point, to ask what exactly being "black" means? We keep using terms like "black students" -- is this kind of categorization based on skin color, genetics, culture, self-identification or what?
Self identified students. Nothing to do with culture.
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