What is in the future of NWI? (Gary: neighborhood, schools)

[LIS123]

Originally Posted by Rich60

I do not think that there is much hope for the area as a whole. There seems to be some kind of time warp where many of the plans seem to reflect an attempt to recreate the "good old days". The only real industry is dying (steel). The young folks leave for Chicago or elsewhere and the politicians really don't have a clue. The population base is aging and really seems to focus only on "keep taxes low". I am leaving myself in six months to a year. There is really no dynamism here.

I agree with this post. Lower costs of business and lower taxes are definitely good things. Being next to IL, these factors definitely help the Region. That said, if the Economy is not able to diversify and add new industries and jobs (steel and casinos won't be enough), the area will decline. If things get worse Economically, the region may have trouble maintaining its cost advantage over IL. For ex, it seems the percentage savings on gasoline in NWI vs South Suburban Chicago has decreased over time. It seems like it used to be a bigger % savings in NWI a decade or so back than it is now.

[SoHoVe]

Originally Posted by Lake County IN

I have to disagree with you.

That's how it always works. When people have jobs and money, they don't commit crime.

Untrue...take white collar criminals for example. Poverty may breed crime but having wealth doesn't eliminate it. People who embrace a criminal mindset exist at every income level.

Also to suggest that NYC without Wall St or LA without Hollywood would turn into the hell that Gary is today suggests to me that perhaps your only experiences with these places was via TV and the media. L A has what I believe is busiest international port in the country and NYC generates tons of income from sources unrelated to Wall St.

I think Gary should move forward with the airport.

[Lake County IN]

Originally Posted by Chuckity

I don't think there's an easy answer BUT ... the South Shore station has two stops in Gary with an hour ride (or less) to Randolph in Chicago.

It has for years.

To say the reason that Gary is Gary is because of lack of jobs in the direct vicinity is false - when there's reliable, daily and sometimes hourly transportation right to downtown available.

No, it is not false. What kinds of jobs are you talking about. You need education to go get a job in the Loop somewhere in Chicago and I hope you're not talking about downtown Gary, because there aren't any jobs there. Most of the people in NWI don't have bachelor degrees. We were built on a primarily labor force, therefore when the jobs that required those skillsets left, you had people who didn't have the skills to do anything else but work in the mills, factories, and do manual labor etc. . . Because of that, there aren't that many employment opportunites for poor, uneducated people. Because of that, the schools and social services break down, because there is no tax base to support said services, therefore you have a cycle of poor uneducated people. When that becomes the culture, then the crime starts, which then discourages new jobs and opportunities from coming to said community. You see it becomes a self-perpetuating cycle.

You have to have a populace with enough money to pay for better schools and social services with their tax dollars. The only way you have that is if people have good jobs in the area, that matches the skillsets of the people who live in said area.

Originally Posted by SoHoVe

Untrue...take white collar criminals for example. Poverty may breed crime but having wealth doesn't eliminate it. People who embrace a criminal mindset exist at every income level.

Also to suggest that NYC without Wall St or LA without Hollywood would turn into the hell that Gary is today suggests to me that perhaps your only experiences with these places was via TV and the media. L A has what I believe is busiest international port in the country and NYC generates tons of income from sources unrelated to Wall St.

I think Gary should move forward with the airport.

My point was not that those were the ONLY things that those cities have going for them. My point was they have SOMETHING generating capital for their economies. They're not a bunch of cities with no jobs and no way to generate capital for their regions. New York was close at one time and that's when New York looked like "Berlin after the blitz", according to our former president Ronald Reagan. When you had that cycle of poverty, the world's greatest city turned to a violent cesspool with record breaking murder rates. It wasn't until capital started flowing back into NYC in the late '90s did it become the Disneyfied utopia that it is now.


I agree with you about white collar crime, but white collar criminals are not punished by society like poor people are. When people talk about crime, they are not talking about Bernard Madoff, even though he is a bigger crook who's done more damage than all of the crooks in Gary put together. People who denegrate Gary often point to the morality of its citizens as the reason things suck in Gary, but you and I know that as you said rich people aren't any better, which is why their arguments are flawed. Gangsters built virtually every major city in this country or had a major hand in it.

However, the types of crimes are different depending on wealth. Gangbanging, drug dealing, rapes, and vandalism are hallmarks of all poverty stricken societies. Those are the types of crimes that become entrenched in a society and that people choose to focus on, which is why I was addressing those types of crime and not white collar.

White collar crime is an extention of capitalism. Greed is encouraged.

Blue collar crime is an extention of social circumstances.

[Chuckity]

So untrue. A bachelor degree is not a pre-requisite to get on the South Shore and go to work. A degree makes it easier - but it's not a requirement.

A bulk of the problem lies in the individual - sure there's a train right to downtown BUT .... I could get a job BUT ... I could get a technical/associates/bachelor's degree BUT ...

C'mon.

Blaming society for the effects on the individual only goes so far - personal responsibility has to have some play as well.

I come from a completely blue collar, south side family. The fall of the steel industry devastated a lot of them. Jobs gone. Pensions gone. Health care gone. But they didn't sit on their asses and cry poor mouth. Or car jack. Or drink & drug themselves into oblivion. They got off their asses and figured out how the hell they were going to support their families - they had enough pride not to rely on anyone (ie the government) to sustain them for long.

Btw, my husband works in East Chicago and most of the blue collar employees are from East Chicago & Gary. The employer offers 100% tuition reimursement. 100%. Not a single blue collar worker has taken a single class in the TEN years he's worked there.

Originally Posted by Lake County IN

No, it is not false. What kinds of jobs are you talking about. You need education to go get a job in the Loop somewhere in Chicago and I hope you're not talking about downtown Gary, because there aren't any jobs there. Most of the people in NWI don't have bachelor degrees. We were built on a primarily labor force, therefore when the jobs that required those skillsets left, you had people who didn't have the skills to do anything else but work in the mills, factories, and do manual labor etc. . . Because of that, there aren't that many employment opportunites for poor, uneducated people. Because of that, the schools and social services break down, because there is no tax base to support said services, therefore you have a cycle of poor uneducated people. When that becomes the culture, then the crime starts, which then discourages new jobs and opportunities from coming to said community. You see it becomes a self-perpetuating cycle.

You have to have a populace with enough money to pay for better .

[Lake County IN]

Originally Posted by Chuckity

So untrue. A bachelor degree is not a pre-requisite to get on the South Shore and go to work. A degree makes it easier - but it's not a requirement.

A bulk of the problem lies in the individual - sure there's a train right to downtown BUT .... I could get a job BUT ... I could get a technical/associates/bachelor's degree BUT ...

C'mon.

Blaming society for the effects on the individual only goes so far - personal responsibility has to have some play as well.

I come from a completely blue collar, south side family. The fall of the steel industry devastated a lot of them. Jobs gone. Pensions gone. Health care gone. But they didn't sit on their asses and cry poor mouth. Or car jack. Or drink & drug themselves into oblivion. They got off their asses and figured out how the hell they were going to support their families - they had enough pride not to rely on anyone (ie the government) to sustain them for long.

Btw, my husband works in East Chicago and most of the blue collar employees are from East Chicago & Gary. The employer offers 100% tuition reimursement. 100%. Not a single blue collar worker has taken a single class in the TEN years he's worked there.

I'm sorry mam, but sociologists the world over who are paid to study this have come to similar conclusions. If it was all about the "idividual", then why are the same factors found in practically ever society in every country in the world? Crime exists outside of Northwest Indiana.

You do know that right?

Millions of people all over the world don't just "choose" to fall into crime and poverty. In most cases there is a societal breakdown that ushers in a wave of these things.

Nobody said that NOBODY can come from harsh conditions and make it, but when there is a culture of poverty and bad schools, crime is not far behind, whether you want to admit it or not.

Using the exceptions to the rule does not invalidate experiences of the majority.

[Chuckity]

Bull.

The decision is ALWAYS a personal one.

You can choose to be law-abiding or live a life of crime - to blame your choice on someone else is bull.

Is it easier in certain circumstances to live the life of a gansta - yep. But it's still a choice.

Quit making excuses. Once you make excuses for people you tell them their behavior is acceptable. It's not.

Originally Posted by Lake County IN

I'm sorry mam, but sociologists the world over who are paid to study this have come to similar conclusions. If it was all about the "idividual", then why are the same factors found in practically ever society in every country in the world? Crime exists outside of Northwest Indiana.

You do know that right?

Millions of people all over the world don't just "choose" to fall into crime and poverty. In most cases there is a societal breakdown that ushers in a wave of these things.

Nobody said that NOBODY can come from harsh conditions and make it, but when there is a culture of poverty and bad schools, crime is not far behind, whether you want to admit it or not.

Using the exceptions to the rule does not invalidate experiences of the majority.

[Lake County IN]

Originally Posted by Chuckity

Bull.

The decision is ALWAYS a personal one.

You can choose to be law-abiding or live a life of crime - to blame your choice on someone else is bull.

Is it easier in certain circumstances to live the life of a gansta - yep. But it's still a choice.

Quit making excuses. Once you make excuses for people you tell them their behavior is acceptable. It's not.

What do you wanna do, be Bill O'Reilly about it and just spit platitude and cliche after cliche, or use what works.

Lemme ask you this.

Do you send your kids to a good school, or care at all about the school your kids go to? Do you care about the neighborhood your kids grow up in?

Of course you do. Why? Because you don't want your kids to grow up in a bad environment. Why? Because you know that if you send your kids to bad schools in a bad neighborhood, their chances of succeeding in life will decrease dramatically.

I guarantee you are a hypocrite. I'll bet you probably make sure your kids have a good environment, because you know that it helps their chances. Now, if you will try your best to create a good situation for your kids, knowing that who they are and what they will become is at least partially determined by their environment, then who are you to tell people who don't have that opportunity that environment doesn't matter.

[Chuckity]

I never said the environment doesn't matter.

But people have choices in life - and once you excuse behavior and place the blame anywhere other than the individual, you're essentially saying that their behavior is okay.

Puh-lease. Give people more credit than that.

Because what you're saying is those poor people can't be helped, they'll never be able to figure out how to climb their way out - we should pity them, feel sorry for them.

The way you treat them and think of them is far worse than anything I could even imagine. You count them out before they even try - I, on the other hand, think that they control their destiny. The outcome of their lives isn't set in stone by outside forces.

And give me a break on the hypocrite/O'Reilly crap. I'm a south sider by birth. A product of CPS. I wasn't born with a silver spoon - it was more like a plastic spork.

Originally Posted by Lake County IN

What do you wanna do, be Bill O'Reilly about it and just spit platitude and cliche after cliche, or use what works.

Lemme ask you this.

Do you send your kids to a good school, or care at all about the school your kids go to? Do you care about the neighborhood your kids grow up in?

Of course you do. Why? Because you don't want your kids to grow up in a bad environment. Why? Because you know that if you send your kids to bad schools in a bad neighborhood, their chances of succeeding in life will decrease dramatically.

I guarantee you are a hypocrite. I'll bet you probably make sure your kids have a good environment, because you know that it helps their chances. Now, if you will try your best to create a good situation for your kids, knowing that who they are and what they will become is at least partially determined by their environment, then who are you to tell people who don't have that opportunity that environment doesn't matter.

[Lake County IN]

Originally Posted by Chuckity

I never said the environment doesn't matter.

But people have choices in life - and once you excuse behavior and place the blame anywhere other than the individual, you're essentially saying that their behavior is okay.

Puh-lease. Give people more credit than that.

Because what you're saying is those poor people can't be helped, they'll never be able to figure out how to climb their way out - we should pity them, feel sorry for them.

The way you treat them and think of them is far worse than anything I could even imagine. You count them out before they even try - I, on the other hand, think that they control their destiny. The outcome of their lives isn't set in stone by outside forces.

And give me a break on the hypocrite/O'Reilly crap. I'm a south sider by birth. A product of CPS. I wasn't born with a silver spoon - it was more like a plastic spork.

I never EVER said that.

What I said is environment DOES matter. That is all. Don't put words in my mouth. You were all on some high horse, as if the options you are given in life has no bearing on your decisive process.

The kids in Darfur or Detroit don't sit around and say, "I think I'm gonna grow up and kill 1,000 people". They live in an environment where they see people getting killed everyday, it becomes normalized, and life is devalued, and they fall into that.

I guess you believe that some people are just born bad and all the "bad" people just all happen to live in the same cities in the world at the same time, right? That's the only way you could explain why there's little to no crime in some places and a ton of crime in others. I guess the suburbs are where all the "good" people go, and the ghetto is where all the "bad" people, who don't want to work or go to school choose to live, right?

It has nothing to do with the options they are given. Am I hearin' you right?

I guess Bernard Madoff and all those other Wall Street jerks must be good people, because they lived in good neighborhoods and chose not to gangbang or sell drugs.

[Chuckity]

So, you're saying that killing becomes normal, right?

Because they see it everyday, crime becomes a normal way of life right?

So you must be saying that when they kill or rob someone, they have no idea what they did was wrong?

C'mon.

Of course they did. They knew it was wrong. They did it anyway. That's called choice.

There comes a certain point in life where you must take personal responsibility for your own actions and not have your actions excused away.

Originally Posted by Lake County IN

I never EVER said that.

What I said is environment DOES matter. That is all. Don't put words in my mouth. You were all on some high horse, as if the options you are given in life has no bearing on your decisive process.

The kids in Darfur or Detroit don't sit around and say, "I think I'm gonna grow up and kill 1,000 people". They live in an environment where they see people getting killed everyday, it becomes normalized, and life is devalued, and they fall into that.

I guess you believe that some people are just born bad and all the "bad" people just all happen to live in the same cities in the world at the same time, right? That's the only way you could explain why there's little to no crime in some places and a ton of crime in others. I guess the suburbs are where all the "good" people go, and the ghetto is where all the "bad" people, who don't want to work or go to school choose to live, right?

It has nothing to do with the options they are given. Am I hearin' you right?

I guess Bernard Madoff and all those other Wall Street jerks must be good people, because they lived in good neighborhoods and chose not to gangbang or sell drugs.