So which city is really the biggest? (Columbus, Cleveland: home, quality of life)
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Its difficult to sort out what's happening with the Akron metro area becuase the northern part of Summitt County, which is the county Akron sits in, is the outer suburbs of Cleveland (places like Twinsburg and Hudson).
So the economic and population growth of Summitt County does include...to some unknown degree...a fraction of the Cleveland suburban population and economy.
And this is the problem, though. Again, if we use this standard, here is what happens:
Let's take Columbus. There is a lot of development between it and Delaware. Between Delaware and Marion there is more. And between Marion and Mansfield, etc... Pretty soon you can find connected development all the way to Lake Erie and south to the River. I just don't think that a Walmart or a strip mall means that two cities are somehow a part of each other over long distances. I don't like the idea of simply adding other cities and towns to try and inflate your own city's population numbers. It clearly becomes way too subjective and it's not applied equally. I don't like MSAs for this reason, but at the very least, they have a defined border by using county lines surrounding a city. CSAs tend to as well, but they just add MSAs together, which makes those cities involved lose even more identity.
Yes, this is true. Akron's MSA actually includes some of Cleveland's suburban sprawl. This is because the census separates MSAs by county line. I know many people who grew up in that part of Summit county, and they associate with Cleveland because their previous generations of family have migrated out from inner city Cleveland (pretty much down Broadway).
And yes, Cleveland and Akron are in the same metro area. I think that is pretty clear to anyone from the area who is not named Lebron James. The development up route 8 between the two is continuous, and is only prevented from being so up I-77 because of the Cuyahoga Valley National Park.
It's not that black & white of a thing. No, Toledo is not part of Detroit metro nor Philly part of NYC metro. However, Wilmington is part of the Philly Metro and Newark is part of the NYC metro.
Again if sprawl is what we're using to define a city's area, then Toledo and Detroit are the same place, and all those big cities on the East Coast are one city. You can't use that standard for Cleveland and then reject it elsewhere just because distances may be greater.
My question is, why does the census separate Akron into its own MSA at all if it is truly considered to be a direct suburb of Cleveland?
Again if sprawl is what we're using to define a city's area, then Toledo and Detroit are the same place, and all those big cities on the East Coast are one city. You can't use that standard for Cleveland and then reject it elsewhere just because distances may be greater.
My question is, why does the census separate Akron into its own MSA at all if it is truly considered to be a direct suburb of Cleveland?
I'm sure you will go round & round about the MSA/CSA thing, so I'm done with that and let's just say we'll agree to disagree.
Although here is another level of measurement to think about, which is defined by urbanized area. This is a measurement of city populations counting only the land that is considered "urban" by the US census. This basically takes any low density sprawl and satellite cities (e.g. Akron) out of the equation.
Regarding Cleveland versus Cincinnati, the Cleveland suburbs that happen to fall in Summit County get counted under Akron because Akron is in Summit County, and the Census Bureau only breaks it down by county. Akron as a separate metro area is legit -- it does have a lot of ties to Cleveland, but it functions as a separate city. But the Cleveland suburbs that fall in the Akron metro like Twinsburg and Aurora are still Cleveland suburbs. With respect to drive time from the central city and commuting patterns, it would be as if Dayton were in Butler County and West Chester or Fairfield -- though they're Cincinnati suburbs -- got counted under Dayton. In other words, Cincinnati doesn't have another major city close enough by to "steal" any of its suburbs. In a sense, that's the only reason their MSA is bigger than Cleveland's.
Last edited by tribecavsbrowns; 01-27-2011 at 01:07 PM..
So what I'm getting is there are about 50 different ways to inflate city totals depending on which standard one finds legitimate. This basically supports my contention that MSAs and CSAs are inconsistent and far too vague. Incorporated city limits are about the only way to get a real number. That said, I know there is argument with that as well considering that city size varies, but even so, there are set, defined limits that aren't subject to a whole lot of interpretation.
Cleveland, no matter its real size, still has the biggest problem with population, as even if you define it by city limits, MSA or CSA, all 3 show a continued population decline. Whether or not this trend continues will determine how long it stays in 1st or 2nd place. Cincy is not growing in its city limits, but is showing healthy growth in the MSA and CSA. Columbus shows the best growth in all 3 catergories. Again, whether these trends continue is debatable. It will be interesting to see the actual 2010 numbers.
But anyway, what about the 2nd part of the question... the best?
So what I'm getting is there are about 50 different ways to inflate city totals depending on which standard one finds legitimate. This basically supports my contention that MSAs and CSAs are inconsistent and far too vague. Incorporated city limits are about the only way to get a real number. That said, I know there is argument with that as well considering that city size varies, but even so, there are set, defined limits that aren't subject to a whole lot of interpretation.
Cleveland, no matter its real size, still has the biggest problem with population, as even if you define it by city limits, MSA or CSA, all 3 show a continued population decline. Whether or not this trend continues will determine how long it stays in 1st or 2nd place. Cincy is not growing in its city limits, but is showing healthy growth in the MSA and CSA. Columbus shows the best growth in all 3 catergories. Again, whether these trends continue is debatable. It will be interesting to see the actual 2010 numbers.
But anyway, what about the 2nd part of the question... the best?
If this is what you want to talk about, perhaps consider making a new thread. I think anybody who makes an honest synthesis of the various measures of how "big" the Ohio cities are is going to reach the same conclusion: Cleveland, then Cincinnati very close behind, then Columbus further behind but growing the quickest. I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.
If you want to believe Cincinnati is "bigger" or "better" than Cleveland, that's your prerogative. I don't care. But there isn't objective data you can point to that will convince anyone on here.
I don't understand why everyone in Ohio is so hung up on this stuff. Really, what difference does it make? Think about it. Isn't it just about bragging rights? You want to make sure your metro area is the largest so you can feel some sort of heightened sense of pride. To me, that's just an insecurity thing. You need to boost your personal egos by making sure your particular section of the state stands out above the others, which means you'll be able to go around saying "Nyah nyah, I live in the biggest city in Ohio, which means my city is better than yours". Honestly, it's childish.
I don't understand why everyone in Ohio is so hung up on this stuff. Really, what difference does it make? Think about it. Isn't it just about bragging rights? You want to make sure your metro area is the largest so you can feel some sort of heightened sense of pride. To me, that's just an insecurity thing. You need to boost your personal egos by making sure your particular section of the state stands out above the others, which means you'll be able to go around saying "Nyah nyah, I live in the biggest city in Ohio, which means my city is better than yours". Honestly, it's childish.
If this is what you want to talk about, perhaps consider making a new thread. I think anybody who makes an honest synthesis of the various measures of how "big" the Ohio cities are is going to reach the same conclusion: Cleveland, then Cincinnati very close behind, then Columbus further behind but growing the quickest. I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.
If you want to believe Cincinnati is "bigger" or "better" than Cleveland, that's your prerogative. I don't care. But there isn't objective data you can point to that will convince anyone on here.
I made the thread title about the biggest and/or best, so this is perfectly reasonable debate for the topic. I don't need to make another thread.
I don't live in Cincy or Cleveland, so I don't have a dog in the fight in which of those two are bigger. I'm actually in Columbus and I'm perfectly fine with it having the smallest MSA/CSA or whatever. I think some are getting a little bent out of shape at the suggestion that Cleveland may not be the biggest in the state, though, and the fact that they have to gather up all neighboring cities to inflate its totals seems a little bit desperate to me.
As far as objective data, there is in city limits, but obviously a lot of you would disagree with those because it would make Columbus biggest. But yeah, MSAs and CSAs are not very objective.
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