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Old 03-24-2011, 04:13 PM
 
68 posts, read 88,804 times
Reputation: 26

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Quote:
Originally Posted by davery5872 View Post

Iím not saying this could not be worked out in time, but SB5 becomes law 90 days after the governor signs it. No school district will have the system in place to comply with this law.
Agreed, knowing there will likely be many changes before this advances to the Gov's desk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davery5872 View Post
Another thing that bothers me is that this is being sold as a way to solve the financial crisis. We could debate the wisdom if this, but it ignores another question. If this is to solve the current crisis, what about five or ten years from now? This bill is permanent. When the crisis is over and good times are rolling again, then what? The public workers do not get to take that ride?
The bill is only as permanent as the taxpaying voters are willing to tolerate it.

Good question, but didn't most public workers already get to take that ride (automatic pay increases) over the past two decades, regardless of the economic climate? The bill's language will almost certainly be amended to allow wage negotiation. . . .

And. . . IMHO . . . .I'm not sure there would ever be a foreseeable economic situation when taxpayers would want to give back strike rights to a PEU.
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Old 03-24-2011, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Ohio/Sarasota
820 posts, read 1,237,336 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberdasher View Post
Good question, but didn't most public workers already get to take that ride (automatic pay increases) over the past two decades, regardless of the economic climate? The bill's language will almost certainly be amended to allow wage negotiation. . . .
Public workers have not been immune to the past few years. They have taken cuts just like everyone else. I have said this before in this thread, there is one local school district where health care premiums have increased 500% in the past ten years.

It does not really matter if the language of the bill is changed to allow wage bargaining. If public workers cannot strike or have binding arbitration what is the point?

And please notice that when I replied to your question about what my concern was about SB5 did not include anything about wages. While I think eliminating the existing salary structure will present many problems, wages are not my primary concern. Teachers need to have a seat at the table. The administrator/politicians need to have balanced oversight. If you ask teachers, it's not really about the money. It's about the respect.
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Old 03-25-2011, 10:00 AM
 
68 posts, read 88,804 times
Reputation: 26
correction: sorry, didn't mean to say pay increases, although I'd like to see some data on how many of the hundreds of municipal labor agreements negotiated statewide actually reduced or eliminated them. Or how sharply they revised rules on carrying over sick or vacation pay. I meant to say, while critically underfunded even with increased public employee sacrifice, public pensions remain a solid guarantee to public employees. For us other chumps, not so much.

You've got a solid point about the implications of reforming bargaining this way, assuming all of the value-add you mention is part of the contract negotiation process and not more of an ongoing district management activity.
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Old 03-25-2011, 11:33 AM
 
Location: Ohio/Sarasota
820 posts, read 1,237,336 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberdasher View Post
correction: sorry, didn't mean to say pay increases, although I'd like to see some data on how many of the hundreds of municipal labor agreements negotiated statewide actually reduced or eliminated them. Or how sharply they revised rules on carrying over sick or vacation pay. I meant to say, while critically underfunded even with increased public employee sacrifice, public pensions remain a solid guarantee to public employees. For us other chumps, not so much.

You've got a solid point about the implications of reforming bargaining this way, assuming all of the value-add you mention is part of the contract negotiation process and not more of an ongoing district management activity.
Keep in mind that public workers do not have matching funds for a 401K. Also, teachers are paying 10% of their salary towards their retirement, and it is increasing to 14%, or even higher, in the next few years. If you are in the private sector right now you are paying 4.2%. Teachers also do not receive bonuses. When times are good, many companies hand out bonuses (such as what GM just did). When times are good, teachers get nothing.
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Old 03-25-2011, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Cortland, Ohio
3,171 posts, read 6,752,008 times
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Private sector jobs get a bonus when they make a profit, the teaching profession isn't profitable financially.
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Old 03-25-2011, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Ohio/Sarasota
820 posts, read 1,237,336 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CortlandGirl79 View Post
Private sector jobs get a bonus when they make a profit, the teaching profession isn't profitable financially.
So are you saying that you did not profit financially from your education? I know I have. Because I went to school I make a lot more money than if I hadn't. Because I went to college, I make even more money than if hadn't. I read a report once by a Stanford professor saying that a really good teacher is worth about $400K a year if you take into consideration the future earnings of their students.
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Old 03-25-2011, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Cortland, Ohio
3,171 posts, read 6,752,008 times
Reputation: 1320
^I'm not saying myself or others that have obtained an education aren't profitable, i'm talking about teachers. They aren't making a profit, financially speaking, for the school system. I'm not one of those people that think teachers need cut and i'm not for SB5. Trust me, i'm all for collective bargaining. My point was that GM employees got a profit sharing check because helped make the company money by building a value added product. Besides, profit sharing is something that's negotiated into their contract. Teachers provide a great service to our children, but they didn't go into teaching to make a ton of money. When times are good teachers have smaller class sizes and are able to negotiate better pay and benefits thanks to the teacher's union. Now that times are getting tough the state of Ohio and local counties and districts have to make some changes, through negotiation.

The first thing they need to do in my county is get rid of the over abundance of supers and districts. My area has lost population and there is no reason to have 20 plus districts, all of which have supers that make $80-100k+ per year. They need to cut out the fat and "lean" out the system through continuous improvement aka look at ways to save the taxpayers money.

Now to address what you said about my education........no, i have no profited financially from my bachelor's degree in business administration. I made double the money when i worked as part of a bargaining unit for an automotive parts supplier. I went to school and make a lot less money than when i didn't have a degree. It's great that your education worked out for you, and I"m hoping mine does in the future, but as of right now I think getting a college education in this country is a money making scheme. Sure having a degree gets your foot in the door and many jobs require one, but we'd be a lot better off if our goverment would adjust our trade policies so that they are fair. The reason we are in the mess in the first place has to do w/a lack of ethics and regulation in the banking industry, offshoring of jobs, bad government policy, etc.
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Old 03-26-2011, 09:15 AM
 
68 posts, read 88,804 times
Reputation: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by davery5872 View Post
Keep in mind that public workers do not have matching funds for a 401K.
Because most if not all have access to the benefits of a funded pension, in good times and bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davery5872 View Post
Also, teachers are paying 10% of their salary towards their retirement, and it is increasing to 14%, or even higher, in the next few years. If you are in the private sector right now you are paying 4.2%.
I'm only paying 94% towards my retirement, but I understand all the grumbling But aren't taxpayers paying 100% of public employee retirements?

Only 65% of private sector employees even have access to a defined benefits plan like a 401k, the best of which almost certainly match less than 10% of an employee's contribution. And very few if any of this 65% will have access to a funded pension.

Bureau of Labor


Quote:
Originally Posted by davery5872 View Post
Teachers also do not receive bonuses. When times are good, many companies hand out bonuses (such as what GM just did). When times are good, teachers get nothing.
Yes, the possibility exists to get bonuses, but I have no data on what % of private employment actually receive bonuses. I believe Teachers SHOULD receive bonuses for good performance and should negotiate for them. Perhaps we can start another thread on why the teachers unions haven't wholeheartedly embraced the concept of merit pay.
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Old 03-26-2011, 09:31 AM
 
Location: In a happy place
3,198 posts, read 3,481,502 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberdasher View Post
But aren't taxpayers paying 100% of public employee retirements?

Using that logic, your employer is paying 100% of your pension (401K Social Security, etc).

And expanding on that logic, it would appear that the taxpayer is also paying for the public employees food, clothing, utilities, furniture, gasoline, landscaping, etc. just as your employer is paying for your food, clothing, utilities, furniture, gasoline, landscaping, etc.

And by the way, pension payments received by current retired public employees are not being paid by the taxpayers, but by returns on the investments made with the contributions made while the employee was working.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberdasher View Post
I believe Teachers SHOULD receive bonuses for good performance and should negotiate for them. Perhaps we can start another thread on why the teachers unions haven't wholeheartedly embraced the concept of merit pay.
Perhaps it is because a truly valid measure of the criteria that would qualify a teacher to receive merit pay has never been developed or revealed.
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Old 03-26-2011, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Ohio/Sarasota
820 posts, read 1,237,336 times
Reputation: 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrtechno View Post
Perhaps it is because a truly valid measure of the criteria that would qualify a teacher to receive merit pay has never been developed or revealed.
But yet it is in SB 5.
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