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Old 03-11-2016, 07:21 AM
 
Location: Boston, MA
5,917 posts, read 4,808,837 times
Reputation: 4720

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
So America needs its Putin? The world would be better? America would be better?


Blaming Trump on liberals... JHC.


Oh please dude. Sometimes I don't know if you are intentionally being flippant or if it's honestly not an act. My obvious point was that it's amazing that someone as enlightened, international, and progressive as yourself would first think of Africa having troublesome dictators who you don't like but at least they can't really do much internationally, completely ignoring the now 16-year dictatorship of one Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, an ex-KGB thug with access to the second-largest nuclear arsenal on planet earth, who is hostile towards the West, free speech, and basic human dignity. That didn't even enter into your brain. I mean, wow. To be fair, I have lived in Russia and speak Russian and follow their media and our media so I definitely know way more than you when it comes to their affairs, but I still don't get how that wasn't the first person on your mind. That shows a high level of obliviousness to the world. Talk about missing the elephant in the room.

To suggest that anything in my post can be construed as pro-Trump is incredibly dishonest. I daresay you have a fetish for this kind of thing. After all, it's an easy way to diminish anyone who disagrees with you and not have to actually think about what they say. "Oh, he thinks differently and has view points that I don't and probably has a very different life experience and philosophy than I do? Must be a Trump supporter." It seems like I can't say anything anti-Progressive without being accused of desiring a Trump dictatorship. I've told you this before and I know it takes a while to get over the shock, but political opinion is not limited to a binary.

And once again, I said I blame the left and right for Trump (interesting by the way, that you accuse me of saying we need a Putin and then in the same breath tell me I accuse liberals of making Trump).

I really can't get over how dishonest you are. Your snark and sarcasm might make you popular among your progressive echo chamber cliques, but to everyone else it's repugnant. That is how you helped make Trump. Congrats. I hope you enjoy it.

I look forward to a smug, condescending reply. Although I'd be thrilled if the dialogue were elevated. I've learned not to have expectations though.

Last edited by bjimmy24; 03-11-2016 at 07:32 AM..
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Old 03-11-2016, 01:45 PM
 
Location: livin' the good life
2,069 posts, read 3,178,730 times
Reputation: 1149
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Okay, let's play. Name specific policies implemented by Obama (who I assume you mean in your 8-year reference) that have actively made things worse in America. No talking points, no assumptions, just actual policy. And then give reasons, based on studies or whatever you can find, that show that these policies have been detrimental to the performance of America socially, culturally and financially. I await your response.

Government is not always the answer, but nor is it never the answer. When the Cuyahoga River was on fire, was it the people of Ohio that fixed that problem? Was it state government, even? Or was it the national Clean Water Act?
When you drive home from work on a highway, who is responsible for building it? The people of Ohio? State government that is self-financed? Or did the federal government play a defining role?
If you know a bi-racial married couple, which entity is responsible for getting rid of anti-miscegenation laws? Hint, it wasn't ultimately the states, especially in every state south of Mason-Dixon.

There are a million examples where the federal government did what no one else could or would. I despise this nonsense that all government is somehow evil or bad, while its opponents take advantage of every single advantage it created. It is an organization run by human beings, so there will be mistakes made, even terrible ones, but it is the height of irrationality to declare it a burden to civilized society despite the reality that civilized society exists because of it. If it were left up to the people, there would still be segregation, our national parks would be paved over and corporations could poison us with complete immunity.

Running government as a for-profit business is probably the worst idea ever, if for no other reason than it assumes that private interests have the best interests of all citizens when they clearly wouldn't. They would have the interests only of those who can pay, and considering all the anti-big government sentiment by conservatives, turning government into a business would actually make access even worse, and create an even bigger lobbying paradise for those who have the biggest pockets. Maybe you just haven't thought this through.

As for Trump, he's not even that great of a businessman judging by his many failed ventures. It's really not that hard to turn millions into more millions, provided you have been given millions to start with. He wasn't self-made. He's an American joke, a cautionary tale of how things can get out of hand when you don't bother to look behind the curtain and question what is real. No thanks.
I say 'House on Fire' these last eight years. Under Obama ourreputation as a world leader has waned due2his policies.Just to name a few, Syria 'red line' on chemical weapons and not acting has caused massive genocide. We had control of the war in Iraq/Afghanistan and Obama decision to pull out has allowed the ISIS to fill the void in all these countries. Certainly the dealing w/Putin as he invades neighboring countries and also allowing Putin's allying with Assad is not a good thing. Allowing China to build islands in the South China Sea for military operations has made the region unstable. The Iran deal will end up being the worst deal in history as they continue to go rogue and we end up giving them billions of dollars to help them become a nuclear power and make the region unstable. I don't need to mention how bad we have treat our friend in Israel. I might mention that Hillary had her hand in a lot of these poor decisions, policies. There are many more messes created under Obama that hopefully the next leader can try to correct. I struggle to come up with one thing good Obama (or Hillary) has accomplished.
By the way Trump will run the country like a business and put highly qualified people in his administration.
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Old 03-12-2016, 06:08 AM
 
Location: Where there is too much snow!
6,057 posts, read 9,861,064 times
Reputation: 2837
Default Trump, not good for America

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZnGuy View Post
if you were honest with yourself you would agree that 'things bad out there' started within the last eight years..maybe government will be better run as a business by folks that actually had a job and accomplished something..
Trump has lost loss many companies do to bad management and most of the building that bare his name, he doesn't even own. I do like his stand on illegals and how to deal with them, but he lacks a ton on Political Etiquette that could be a BIG problem in the global level with other leaders. Too many of our so called politicians seem to have forgotten what it means to be a true leader and have become nothing short of legal bullies.

And yes the country needs to be run like a business, that's why I was upset when Ross Perrot walk away like he did years ago.

And look how bad things have gotten at any of the rallies, people are attacking each other on the floors and trump seems to support it. And those same people who attack others, stand there and say, "They're attacking our rights". Maybe they should setup a specially area for the protesters at any of the rallies just to protect each others rights. Just saying.
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Old 03-12-2016, 07:59 AM
 
1,046 posts, read 957,917 times
Reputation: 473
People in Cleveland voted for Obama because he got them a free phone. Just youtube: "obama phone"

Trump doesn't even have to give Clevelanders a free phone and he still get's their vote!
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Old 03-12-2016, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
11,169 posts, read 10,448,389 times
Reputation: 4315
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjimmy24 View Post


Oh please dude. Sometimes I don't know if you are intentionally being flippant or if it's honestly not an act. My obvious point was that it's amazing that someone as enlightened, international, and progressive as yourself would first think of Africa having troublesome dictators who you don't like but at least they can't really do much internationally, completely ignoring the now 16-year dictatorship of one Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, an ex-KGB thug with access to the second-largest nuclear arsenal on planet earth, who is hostile towards the West, free speech, and basic human dignity. That didn't even enter into your brain. I mean, wow. To be fair, I have lived in Russia and speak Russian and follow their media and our media so I definitely know way more than you when it comes to their affairs, but I still don't get how that wasn't the first person on your mind. That shows a high level of obliviousness to the world. Talk about missing the elephant in the room.

To suggest that anything in my post can be construed as pro-Trump is incredibly dishonest. I daresay you have a fetish for this kind of thing. After all, it's an easy way to diminish anyone who disagrees with you and not have to actually think about what they say. "Oh, he thinks differently and has view points that I don't and probably has a very different life experience and philosophy than I do? Must be a Trump supporter." It seems like I can't say anything anti-Progressive without being accused of desiring a Trump dictatorship. I've told you this before and I know it takes a while to get over the shock, but political opinion is not limited to a binary.

And once again, I said I blame the left and right for Trump (interesting by the way, that you accuse me of saying we need a Putin and then in the same breath tell me I accuse liberals of making Trump).

I really can't get over how dishonest you are. Your snark and sarcasm might make you popular among your progressive echo chamber cliques, but to everyone else it's repugnant. That is how you helped make Trump. Congrats. I hope you enjoy it.

I look forward to a smug, condescending reply. Although I'd be thrilled if the dialogue were elevated. I've learned not to have expectations though.
Putin is not the only terrible leader in the world. Talk about condescending, wow. I thought of Africa mainly because a lot of those leaders involve maligning certain groups based on religion or other cultural characteristics, and incentivizing violence against them. Trump reminds me more of an African dictator than he does Putin. Disagree if you like, but this is not a case of me just forgetting Russia exists. And even if Trump was more like Putin, I'm not sure why you would find reason to jump down my throat about the comparison. Neither one is good news. We're just discussing different degrees of a worst-case scenario.

You haven't exactly come out strongly against Trump, and several of your positions seem to defend him here. It is not my fault you've been wishy-washy with where you stand and haven't quite stated your position one way or another. This has nothing to do with a difference of view. You have just made several posts that can easily be seen, at least indirectly, as being supportive of Trump. I also find it interesting that you didn't outright say you don't support him just now, despite all of those histrionics about how I am getting you all wrong. Most of the time, there is nuance in positions because reality is usually nuanced, not black and white. But with Trump, I just don't think that is possible. His extreme positions don't lend to a nuanced view of him, where you can support him as a candidate while being morally opposed to his extremity. There are times when you just have to unequivocally make a stand. Make one now: Where do you stand on Trump?

Blaming the left for Trump makes no sense, though. They have not been the party that has been tolerating and encouraging bigotry, racism and a hatred of differences for the better part of 60 years. The parties completely switched right around the time when Democrats started supporting Civil Rights and the pro-segregation South abandoned them for the GOP. So I would like to hear how you think the left is at least partially responsible for Trump. What specifically have they done that has encouraged his rise?

Please, I am not responsible for someone else supporting racism or violence or war crimes. That is the biggest load of crap ever. Every single person is responsible for their own actions and views. I certainly get angry about Trump's rise, especially when thinking about all the damage he is doing and could do, and all the people he could hurt along the way. And I have absolutely no problem calling out the people who do support him and his nonsense. That hardly makes me a terrible person who is, incredulously, somehow responsible for it all.
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Old 03-12-2016, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
11,169 posts, read 10,448,389 times
Reputation: 4315
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZnGuy View Post
I say 'House on Fire' these last eight years. Under Obama ourreputation as a world leader has waned due2his policies.Just to name a few, Syria 'red line' on chemical weapons and not acting has caused massive genocide. We had control of the war in Iraq/Afghanistan and Obama decision to pull out has allowed the ISIS to fill the void in all these countries. Certainly the dealing w/Putin as he invades neighboring countries and also allowing Putin's allying with Assad is not a good thing. Allowing China to build islands in the South China Sea for military operations has made the region unstable. The Iran deal will end up being the worst deal in history as they continue to go rogue and we end up giving them billions of dollars to help them become a nuclear power and make the region unstable. I don't need to mention how bad we have treat our friend in Israel. I might mention that Hillary had her hand in a lot of these poor decisions, policies. There are many more messes created under Obama that hopefully the next leader can try to correct. I struggle to come up with one thing good Obama (or Hillary) has accomplished.
By the way Trump will run the country like a business and put highly qualified people in his administration.
While Obama has not always been the strongest on foreign policy, I actually think that most of the world has viewed the US much more favorably under his administration than the previous one. Ironically, the suggestion here is that Obama somehow allowing madmen to propagate excuses the US for potentially electing one of its very own. It does not.

And in terms of domestic issues, he's been much stronger. Considering the economic reality of most of the world, the US has managed to do very well for itself in its post-recession recovery. The rest of the world might eventually drag it down some again, but in current context, I think people really underestimate just how good the US has had it.

And again, how does running the government like a business not create a government that only answers to business interests? Even if you believe that's how it is now, creating a government that is for-profit would only encourage that situation to get even worse.
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Old 03-12-2016, 09:40 AM
 
1,046 posts, read 957,917 times
Reputation: 473
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
While Obama has not always been the strongest on foreign policy, I actually think that most of the world has viewed the US much more favorably under his administration than the previous one. Ironically, the suggestion here is that Obama somehow allowing madmen to propagate excuses the US for potentially electing one of its very own. It does not.

And in terms of domestic issues, he's been much stronger. Considering the economic reality of most of the world, the US has managed to do very well for itself in its post-recession recovery. The rest of the world might eventually drag it down some again, but in current context, I think people really underestimate just how good the US has had it.

And again, how does running the government like a business not create a government that only answers to business interests? Even if you believe that's how it is now, creating a government that is for-profit would only encourage that situation to get even worse.
The US does well yet it's citizens watch the government waste their tax dollars. When it can demonstrate a fundamental understanding on how to handle funds, then maybe we won't need to start the repair process by running it like a business. What about those who work for smaller privately held businesses that had to pay $400+ more in healthcare per month due to policies that Obama put in place because the employer had to transfer the increase in healthcare costs to the employees? Backwards thinking, nothing more. The candidates that we have available to vote on are ALL a JOKE. This is what our government has evolved into. To make matters worse, we have millennials... a majority of these people for example have the mindset that trophies should be given to losers.

My neighbor had to make the local coach doubt his very existence because the coach gave his son a trophy even though they lost. The father got right in the coaches face and said "don't you EVER give my son a trophy for losing. Trophies are for WINNERS and we don't teach that losing is winning. Leave such soft mindsets in your own home which is nothing more than a dream world."

Or even better, a co-worker of mine was interviewing a potential candidate and when asked what the candidate thinks he can add to the organization of value, the candidate responded "well I went to college so I EARNED the right to work here...I'm sure I'll do just fine"

Poor SOB is so brainwashed by the "everyone deserves to be a winner philosophy" that he actually thought that he was OWED a job just because he graduated from college. Needless to say, my co-worker told him to leave, and to re-align his paradigm. That's what it's come down to, unfortunately. Let's just remove all incentive for one to better themselves and give everyone the jobs that they THINK they deserve. That way everyone can be a winner!

So does it really matter who is elected? What is important is that that whoever loses needs to go away feeling like a winner also.

Last edited by maxmodder; 03-12-2016 at 10:18 AM..
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Old 03-12-2016, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
11,169 posts, read 10,448,389 times
Reputation: 4315
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmodder View Post
The US does well yet it's citizens watch the government waste their tax dollars. When it can demonstrate a fundamental understanding on how to handle funds, then maybe we won't need to start the repair process by running it like a business. What about those who work for smaller privately held businesses that had to pay $400+ more in healthcare per month due to policies that Obama put in place because the employer had to transfer the increase in healthcare costs to the employees? Backwards thinking, nothing more. The candidates that we have available to vote on are ALL a JOKE. This is what our government has evolved into. To make matters worse, we have millennials... a majority of these people for example have the mindset that trophies should be given to losers.

My neighbor had to make the local coach doubt his very existence because the coach gave his son a trophy even though they lost. The father got right in the coaches face and said "don't you EVER give my son a trophy for losing. Trophies are for WINNERS and we don't teach that losing is winning. Leave such soft mindsets in your own home which is nothing more than a dream world."

Or even better, a co-worker of mine was interviewing a potential candidate and when asked what the candidate thinks he can add to the organization of value, the candidate responded "well I went to college so I EARNED the right to work here...I'm sure I'll do just fine"

Poor SOB is so brainwashed by the "everyone deserves to be a winner philosophy" that he actually thought that he was OWED a job just because he graduated from college. Needless to say, my co-worker told him to leave, and to re-align his paradigm. That's what it's come down to, unfortunately. Let's just remove all incentive for one to better themselves and give everyone the jobs that they THINK they deserve. That way everyone can be a winner!

So does it really matter who is elected? What is important is that that whoever loses needs to go away feeling like a winner also.
Explain to me how big business interests running the government would be better? Big banks had only their bottom lines at heart when they were handing out crap mortgages to people who would never be able to afford them. And not a single person involved has ever been held accountable. Yet these are the types of people you want running the government FOR profit. Do you really believe that there will suddenly be less money flowing through to buy off politicians? That's the real joke. Privatization sounds good only if we were living in an alternate reality where big business cared about anything but raking in millions. They do not, and they will simply use the government as another arm to that end, not in the serving of making the US a better place to live for its citizens.

I have yet to meet a Millennial that thought that way. This is a BS stereotype from people looking for just another group to blame for their own problems. I do find it curious though, how certain people are so caught up with the very idea of winning that it becomes a goal worth any cost. Trump sells the idea of winning without having to explain any of the consequences or context of what his idea of winning actually means, and none of his supporters seem aware enough to actually ask those extremely important questions. It is true that in the purest sense, not everyone can win, at least not always everything they want. But there are a lot of degrees between fully coming out on top and being trampled on the bottom. There are plenty of situations in which everyone can actually come away better than they started rather than this "you're either with us or against us" or "there can be only one" Highlander mentality, and no I am not talking about handing out trophies to everyone. I am talking about tangible compromises and figuring out solutions that work for as many people as possible.

Yes, it absolutely matters who is elected. This shouldn't even be a serious question.
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Old 03-12-2016, 03:11 PM
 
1,046 posts, read 957,917 times
Reputation: 473
No, it really doesn't matter who's elected because in the grand scheme of things, it's really just a lesser of two evils. The government is already not in the best interest of the people. Look at how much money we owe China. Just look at the selection of candidates! You have Donald Trump leading the republicans and Hillary Clinton leading the democrats. That is ALL I need to know or anyone needs to know to understand the direction this country has taken. It's a complete joke and it's disrespectful to those who fought for this country to even entertain the idea of one of these 2 clowns leading this nation. What a circus.

A BS stereotype you say? Fabricated by those who wish to blame others for their problems? Pointing out that someone can't comprehend that "losing doesn't mean winning" is not a blame game but rather a fact. This whole "everyone needs to be a winner mindset" is a complete joke, where people think they deserve the same as the next person without doing the same things the next person did to obtain it. It's a dream world generated by those who wish to use it as a coping mechanism to make up for their own short comings in life. Refusal to except that this exists is the exact reason why such mindsets never get fixed, just like refusal to accept that the whole presidential election is a joke. Just watch which ever clown comes to power, take a seat, and watch the show.
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Old 03-12-2016, 03:31 PM
 
Location: N of citrus, S of decent corn
28,326 posts, read 35,390,284 times
Reputation: 44897
As I have said before, Kasich has been my candidate all along. He is the voice of reason, and has the experience for the job. If Trump gets the nomination, then I will vote for Trump, and stand back and watch what ensues.

A country that survived Obama, can survive Trump too.

My gut feeling, is that there is no hope for any Dem this time.
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