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If Ohio was not a swing state I'd go for Jill Stein...but I cannot possibly allow my vote to help Donald Trump, who is a fascist in the making, win this election...
All along through the Dem Primary, I was Bernie Sanders or bust as I have serious reservations about Hillary and her ties to Wall Street, her backing of fracking and unfriendly environmental policy, her backing of big insurance, her support of privatizing prisons, and her backing of TPP and other free trade agreements that send jobs to other countries...but Trump would be so much worse...so I can't in good conscious vote for anyone but Hillary.
I'm in PA, another swing state, and I mirror your sentiments. My heart is with Jill Stein. My brain is with Hillary Clinton.
Generally, I think 3rd party votes are a waste because they are typically protest votes that ultimately dont really matter to the outcome. In a normal election, though, that would be okay and I would understand those votes. This election is like no other in our lifetimes as the risk really is so high. Making sure that Trump loses is absolutely paramount. It transcends liberal and conservative, Republican or Democrat. It's quite literally about the future survival of the nation and its principles, which has never been the case in an American election before (at least not since the Civil War). Trump's recent embrace of possible treason to take Hillary down, if someone was on the fence, may ultimately be the final straw. Hopefully it was for a lot of people. I can't think of much worse at this point.
Admit I haven't read all 30 pages here, but the past few were enough.
What do people think is actually going to happen if Trump gets elected? That secret police are going to come in the night and start kidnapping people? Good God. I see these posts all the time about people, nearly all of them liberals, being "scared" if Trump wins, and 99 percent of them don't go into specifics at all. At. All. What exactly are they scared of?
I'm a lifelong Republican and even I don't know if I will vote for Trump. I just don't know with 100 percent certainty.
But this apocalyptic picture his opponents paint is beyond ridiculous. People did it with Obama and even though I don't agree with his principles (I do *not* think he is a terrible person), we're still here eight years later. We aren't anywhere close to we should be economically or in terms of being united as a country, but we're here. And as history shows, America always gets through the tough times, one way or another.
Admit I haven't read all 30 pages here, but the past few were enough.
What do people think is actually going to happen if Trump gets elected? That secret police are going to come in the night and start kidnapping people? Good God. I see these posts all the time about people, nearly all of them liberals, being "scared" if Trump wins, and 99 percent of them don't go into specifics at all. At. All. What exactly are they scared of?
I'm a lifelong Republican and even I don't know if I will vote for Trump. I just don't know with 100 percent certainty.
But this apocalyptic picture his opponents paint is beyond ridiculous. People did it with Obama and even though I don't agree with his principles (I do *not* think he is a terrible person), we're still here eight years later. We aren't anywhere close to we should be economically or in terms of being united as a country, but we're here. And as history shows, America always gets through the tough times, one way or another.
What bothers me about Trump is his ignorance, greed, hubris and deceit, even apart from his ridiculous policies.
1) Do Trump supporters really believe that Trump knows more about ISIS than U.S. generals? Trump is a fool that never served in the military and has no respect for the military. He reminds me of Lyndon Johnson, who after using deceit (the Gulf of Tonkin resolution) to get us in the Vietnam War, then micro-managed it, even to the point of selecting individual bombing targets. U.S. generals don't know much about ISIS because they are not winning (when if fact ISIS is being substantially weakened without a massive commitment of U.S. ground forces), according to Trump.
Trump's disdainful comments about John McCain should alienate any true conservative, and they certainly alienated permanently many members of the military. Who would want such a jackass as commander-in-chief? I've known POWs from WWII, most of them from the Army Air Corps. When a pilot is shot down after many missions, and endures bodily injury due to torture, how dare any American, let alone a Presidential candidate, say the former POW is not a hero? Sickening.
Trump's avoidance of service also reminds me of George W. Bush, who evaded active service in the Vietnam War by gaining a political appointment to the Air National Guard.
3) Trump praises his buddy, confidant, and mentor Roger Ailes, who allegedly has harassed and objectified women in a way that would have been repulsive even in the 1950s let alone the 21st century, to say nothing about Ailes manipulation and censorship of the news, as evidenced by Trump's winning of the Republican nomination. Trump's comments about abortion even brought condemnation from pro-lifers.
4) Trump often raises excellent issues, but his fixes are preposterous. E.g., do you actually believe that the Mexican government will pay to build a wall on the border? If the Republican House had implemented the comprehensive immigration bill passed by the Senate in 2013, illegal immigration would be largely checked. That bill provided for employer verification of every employee, something that Trump never mentions to my knowledge. Many Republican sponsors, such as Trump supporter Sheldon Adelson, have benefited from the cheap labor resulting from illegal immigration. So I just see more Republican double talk on immigration reform when Trump calls for building a wall rather than comprehensive immigration reform.
Do you believe unchecked borrowing and then reorganizing the Federal debt will be anything but an economic disaster?
Does anybody believe that he can unilaterally change international trade laws? Here's what the conservative National Review says about Trump trade policies?
Do you think we can afford as President, an ignorant, bombastic individual, prone to insults and off-the-cuff policies devoid of reason?
5) Trump won't release his tax returns. There is no excuse for this, and only a foolish voter IMO would buy such a pig-in-the-poke.
6) Like most Republicans, Trump would be a disaster for the environment. Climate change is real and already wreaking massive destruction in the U.S. Here's just one example.
7) Like George W. Bush, Trump promises to cut taxes while increasing spending. If you believe in fiscal imprudence, Trump is your man.
C-D posters who specialize in labeling ("liberals") and straw man arguments ("secret police") are the most useless posters in this forum.
BTW, you're not a conservative if you support Trump, as I've detailed above. America perhaps survives idiot Presidents, but don't kid yourself that the likes of the Vietnam War, and our global policing efforts haven't decidedly weakened and impoverished many Americans. Leadership matters. If you liked George W. Bush, you'll love Donald Trump IMO.
Admit I haven't read all 30 pages here, but the past few were enough.
What do people think is actually going to happen if Trump gets elected? That secret police are going to come in the night and start kidnapping people? Good God. I see these posts all the time about people, nearly all of them liberals, being "scared" if Trump wins, and 99 percent of them don't go into specifics at all. At. All. What exactly are they scared of?
I'm a lifelong Republican and even I don't know if I will vote for Trump. I just don't know with 100 percent certainty.
But this apocalyptic picture his opponents paint is beyond ridiculous. People did it with Obama and even though I don't agree with his principles (I do *not* think he is a terrible person), we're still here eight years later. We aren't anywhere close to we should be economically or in terms of being united as a country, but we're here. And as history shows, America always gets through the tough times, one way or another.
There is pretty widespread and growing concern for a Trump presidency, and certainly not just from liberal circles. For example, there was concern in intelligence circles about briefing Trump on national security issues, and those concerns appear to have been justified. Right after his first briefing, Trump may have given away the location of a secret US military base in Saudi Arabia. Trump: Saudi Arabia 'should pay us' | TheHill There are, quite frankly, a hell of a lot more concerns than just the rabid bigotry/racism within his campaign and supporters.
These are unsettling times that require a steady hand: That's not Donald Trump. - Houston Chronicle Any one of Trump's less-than-sterling qualities - his erratic temperament, his dodgy business practices, his racism, his Putin-like strongman inclinations and faux-populist demagoguery, his contempt for the rule of law, his ignorance - is enough to be disqualifying. His convention-speech comment, "I alone can fix it," should make every American shudder. He is, we believe, a danger to the Republic.
And then of course there's the recent Russia national security statements, the suggestion that the Geneva Conventions are outdated and the implication that NATO allies could not count on the US for help should they be attacked. Even Ohio's own governor, whom I don't even particularly like, refused to even attend his own party's convention. And Trump has vowed to seek political revenge, as mentioned in the article above. Or how about the report that the Trump campaign offered Kasich the VP spot to literally run the country for Trump?
How the holy hell is there even a question at this point? If you don't like Hillary, fine, but voting for Trump after everything we have seen is insanity.
Trump is not Obama. Trump is unlike any candidate to run possibly in the history of the nation, and certainly in the modern era. And no, that's not a good thing. Whether or not America ultimately survives a Trump presidency shouldn't even be part of the discussion. If you love America, and if you love what is stands for, you would never be willing to take that risk.
What bothers me about Trump is his ignorance, greed, hubris and deceit, even apart from his ridiculous policies.
1) Do Trump supporters really believe that Trump knows more about ISIS than U.S. generals? Trump is a fool that never served in the military and has no respect for the military. He reminds me of Lyndon Johnson, who after using deceit (the Gulf of Tonkin resolution) to get us in the Vietnam War, then micro-managed it, even to the point of selecting individual bombing targets. U.S. generals don't know much about ISIS because they are not winning (when if fact ISIS is being substantially weakened without a massive commitment of U.S. ground forces), according to Trump.
Trump's disdainful comments about John McCain should alienate any true conservative, and they certainly alienated permanently many members of the military. Who would want such a jackass as commander-in-chief? I've known POWs from WWII, most of them from the Army Air Corps. When a pilot is shot down after many missions, and endures bodily injury due to torture, how dare any American, let alone a Presidential candidate, say the former POW is not a hero? Sickening.
Trump's avoidance of service also reminds me of George W. Bush, who evaded active service in the Vietnam War by gaining a political appointment to the Air National Guard.
3) Trump praises his buddy, confidant, and mentor Roger Ailes, who allegedly has harassed and objectified women in a way that would have been repulsive even in the 1950s let alone the 21st century, to say nothing about Ailes manipulation and censorship of the news, as evidenced by Trump's winning of the Republican nomination. Trump's comments about abortion even brought condemnation from pro-lifers.
4) Trump often raises excellent issues, but his fixes are preposterous. E.g., do you actually believe that the Mexican government will pay to build a wall on the border? If the Republican House had implemented the comprehensive immigration bill passed by the Senate in 2013, illegal immigration would be largely checked. That bill provided for employer verification of every employee, something that Trump never mentions to my knowledge. Many Republican sponsors, such as Trump supporter Sheldon Adelson, have benefited from the cheap labor resulting from illegal immigration. So I just see more Republican double talk on immigration reform when Trump calls for building a wall rather than comprehensive immigration reform.
Do you believe unchecked borrowing and then reorganizing the Federal debt will be anything but an economic disaster?
Does anybody believe that he can unilaterally change international trade laws? Here's what the conservative National Review says about Trump trade policies?
Do you think we can afford as President, an ignorant, bombastic individual, prone to insults and off-the-cuff policies devoid of reason?
5) Trump won't release his tax returns. There is no excuse for this, and only a foolish voter IMO would buy such a pig-in-the-poke.
6) Like most Republicans, Trump would be a disaster for the environment. Climate change is real and already wreaking massive destruction in the U.S. Here's just one example.
7) Like George W. Bush, Trump promises to cut taxes while increasing spending. If you believe in fiscal imprudence, Trump is your man.
C-D posters who specialize in labeling ("liberals") and straw man arguments ("secret police") are the most useless posters in this forum.
BTW, you're not a conservative if you support Trump, as I've detailed above. America perhaps survives idiot Presidents, but don't kid yourself that the likes of the Vietnam War, and our global policing efforts haven't decidedly weakened and impoverished many Americans. Leadership matters. If you liked George W. Bush, you'll love Donald Trump IMO.
I would honestly take another 4-8 years of Bush if it meant keeping Trump from office, and I consider him one of the worst presidents we've ever had. Hell, neither Bush supports Trump. Not a single living president does.
Generally, I think 3rd party votes are a waste because they are typically protest votes that ultimately dont really matter to the outcome. In a normal election, though, that would be okay and I would understand those votes. This election is like no other in our lifetimes as the risk really is so high. Making sure that Trump loses is absolutely paramount. It transcends liberal and conservative, Republican or Democrat. It's quite literally about the future survival of the nation and its principles, which has never been the case in an American election before (at least not since the Civil War). Trump's recent embrace of possible treason to take Hillary down, if someone was on the fence, may ultimately be the final straw. Hopefully it was for a lot of people. I can't think of much worse at this point.
Lol... Do you really believe that the democrats and republicans are not one in the same? It doesnt matter which party is in the white house. We get screwed either way.
That's probably the most comprehensive rebuttal I have seen in person or on here. It is a lot to think about for people on any part of the political spectrum. As I said, I truly have no idea how I will vote. Neither do many people I know. More people I know seem disenfranchised than confident in any candidate.
Can't say I appreciate your "useless" comment, especially from someone from my hometown, but I have seen much worse fly around here.
Another glaring example of Trump's hubris and insensitivity towards the sacrifices of American military families. He apparently thinks "success" is a synonym for "sacrifice."
<<Pressed by Stephanopoulos to name the sacrifices he’d made for his country, Trump said: “I think I've made a lot of sacrifices. I work very, very hard. I've created thousands and thousands of jobs, tens of thousands of jobs, built great structures. I've had tremendous success. I think I've done a lot.” >>
Notice how Trump claims to have created thousands and thousands of jobs. It would be interesting to have a break-down. Here's a description of his primary management company, which is a tiny shrimp compared to the nation's largest real estate firms.
"Nobody knows more about taxes than I do, maybe in the history of the world"
Trump: << "You don't learn anything from a tax return. I think nobody knows more about taxes than I do, maybe in the history of the world. Nobody knows more about taxes. You can learn very little from a tax return." >>
Does anybody really believe we wouldn't learn anything from Trump's tax return?
<<In fact, tax experts say the documents could provide significant insights into Trump's income and wealth, how much he gives to charity, the health of his businesses and, overall, how Trump plays the tax game.>>
So Trump believes he knows more than tax professionals, who spend their entire careers studying the intricacies of taxation and comparative taxation, typically holding graduate degrees?
Is there any subject in which Trump is not the smartest guy in the room, if not in the world, in his opinion?
Why would anybody vote for this clown???
I'm surprised that Trump has never made an appearance on Jeopardy. Brad Rutter, let alone the better known Ken Jenkins, wouldn't have a chance against The Donald (at least in Donald's mind)!
Trump reminds me of a four-year-old, seeing his first NBA game, subsequently and confidently declaring that he's better than LeBron James. Why are so many persons willing to support for President a person with arguably the false bravado of a four-year-old?
Last edited by WRnative; 07-30-2016 at 01:43 PM..
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"I've made a lot of sacrifices"
