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Someone so confident in the “facts” shouldn’t be so opposed to debate.
I've repeatedly engaged in objective debate, documenting fact after fact skewering your inane, undocumented comments and opinions.
By contrast, you've engaged in troll-like insults and admitted attempts to scuttle this thread, and then said no further discussion was needed in your post 146. Given your history in this thread, any rational person could only agree with your conclusion in your post 146 -- at least in regards to your participation.
I'm so confident about my statements that I urge readers of this thread, considering the three Cs, actually to visit any C under consideration to decide for themselves the merits of my arguments.
E.g., I don't see how anyone can claim credibly that Cleveland, sitting on Lake Erie, doesn't have a superior boating culture to Columbus or fresh water surf swimming in the summer.
I can understand if someone doesn't value highly NFL, MLB, NBA sports franchises, or the worth of very high quality cultural institutions, or better mass transit including rail service, that Columbus might be an excellent residential destination, depending on what else is on the person's wish list. As documented, however, housing is cheaper in Greater Cleveland than in Greater Columbus, certainly due to the higher population growth rate in Columbus.
Yep, classic case in point. There’s no room for discussion.
Exactly right, the numbers don't lie. I agree. Let's look at some numbers:
Columbus has 3X the population of Cincinnati, right? There are nearly 3X as many posts in the Cincinnati sub-forum than in the Columbus one. In fact, Columbus is much closer to Dayton and Toledo than Cleveland and Cincinnati in terms of total City-Data forum posts.
How can this be? We all know the reason Columbus has 3X and 2X the population of the other "C's" is because of genuine interest and excitement about the city right?
If you drop in the CLE and Cincy sub-forums, they're usually on fire. Drop in the Columbus sub and you're usually greeted with lukewarm, day old posts about school districts.
I can't figure out why the civic unity and excitement that is driving so many more people to Columbus just isn't represented on this website. Mystery!
It will never cease to amaze me how many Cleveland people on this forum make this argument while without taking a breath, knock down Columbus for sprawl. I get it, Columbus annexed A LOT... in the 1970s. I do not get how Columbus is a "Farm Metro" while boasting about Cleveland sprawling into multiple counties. You're not taking into account how each the city itself it built.
Cleveland - Built against a Lake meaning it sprawls along the lake. East to West Cleveland takes and hour to get through, however North to South is about 15 minutes.
Columbus - Inland city meaning it is built radial. East to West Columbus tends to run about 20 minutes to travel, while North to South tends to to be about 40 minutes.
The reality is that Metro Columbus and Metro Cleveland are just built/developed very differently. Columbus is able to build in every direction leading to a much more compact metro while Cleveland was forced to follow the lake. These patterns have literally nothing to do with the importance of the cities today. Debate all you want about the each cities importance, but bringing up satellite maps and time to drive through means absolutely nothing.
You must have Columbus confused with Cincinnati!!! Traveling on I-71 from farmland to farmland (from just north of the Polaris exit to the 2nd Grove City exit) takes 20 to 25 minutes driving around 70/mph with good traffic flow. Cleveland on 71 takes longer although there is no north side because of the lake. On the I-271, State Route 8, I-77 corridor you don’t reach the countryside until you’re south of Canton, which can take well over an hour to drive. Even on 77 between Akron and Brecksville there are residences and businesses although it is more exburban than suburban. My point is that Cleveland has a much larger developed area than Columbus. Remember, I’m talking about the built-up area, not city limits. And I’m sure as hell not about the MSA definitions which doesn’t even come close to representing the Cleveland metropolitan area. And like I said before, Columbus is a farm metro area. There are very few major cities in country (I don’t know of any), where you can drive from downtown to the countryside in less than 10 minutes. If you drive 70 west or 71 south out of downtown you are totally out of the city in very short order. Therefore Columbus has a lot of room to grow. As far as importance is concerned, Columbus when compared to Cleveland doesn’t quite measure up. When it comes to entertainment, cultural institutions, tourism etc, it’s not close. In other areas, Columbus has the edge. I’ve lived in both cities (Columbus is my hometown) so I’m a supporter of both cities. Overall Cleveland is still the most important, but Columbus and Cincinnati are in the conversation.
Exactly right, the numbers don't lie. I agree. Let's look at some numbers:
Columbus has 3X the population of Cincinnati, right? There are nearly 3X as many posts in the Cincinnati sub-forum than in the Columbus one. In fact, Columbus is much closer to Dayton and Toledo than Cleveland and Cincinnati in terms of total City-Data forum posts.
How can this be? We all know the reason Columbus has 3X and 2X the population of the other "C's" is because of genuine interest and excitement about the city right?
If you drop in the CLE and Cincy sub-forums, they're usually on fire. Drop in the Columbus sub and you're usually greeted with lukewarm, day old posts about school districts.
I can't figure out why the civic unity and excitement that is driving so many more people to Columbus just isn't represented on this website. Mystery!
A) All the C's are roughly the same size. You are making a rookie mistake by being wowed by Cbus city proper population. By that metric, Columbus is bigger than Boston and San Francisco. Do you believe that? I'll give you the opportunity to figure this one out.
B) City Data Forum usage is not a great metric for much anything about a city. Besides, city data is for a strange crowd of people- lots of somewhat nerdy folks that skew older. If you want a better vibe, you should be on reddit for these various cities.
C) Lots of people in Columbus are from Cleveland or Cincinnati areas. Even though they may live in Cbus, people from the other C's tend to never "abandon" their hometown. They probably also frequently go home. There simply aren't as many people "from" Columbus as there are the other two C's.
Exactly right, the numbers don't lie. I agree. Let's look at some numbers:
Columbus has 3X the population of Cincinnati, right? There are nearly 3X as many posts in the Cincinnati sub-forum than in the Columbus one. In fact, Columbus is much closer to Dayton and Toledo than Cleveland and Cincinnati in terms of total City-Data forum posts.
How can this be? We all know the reason Columbus has 3X and 2X the population of the other "C's" is because of genuine interest and excitement about the city right?
If you drop in the CLE and Cincy sub-forums, they're usually on fire. Drop in the Columbus sub and you're usually greeted with lukewarm, day old posts about school districts.
I can't figure out why the civic unity and excitement that is driving so many more people to Columbus just isn't represented on this website. Mystery!
Columbus posters do not really post on C-D. They post in other places. Not sure why you think this is the only place on the internet.
I've repeatedly engaged in objective debate, documenting fact after fact skewering your inane, undocumented comments and opinions.
By contrast, you've engaged in troll-like insults and admitted attempts to scuttle this thread, and then said no further discussion was needed in your post 146. Given your history in this thread, any rational person could only agree with your conclusion in your post 146 -- at least in regards to your participation.
I'm so confident about my statements that I urge readers of this thread, considering the three Cs, actually to visit any C under consideration to decide for themselves the merits of my arguments.
E.g., I don't see how anyone can claim credibly that Cleveland, sitting on Lake Erie, doesn't have a superior boating culture to Columbus or fresh water surf swimming in the summer.
I can understand if someone doesn't value highly NFL, MLB, NBA sports franchises, or the worth of very high quality cultural institutions, or better mass transit including rail service, that Columbus might be an excellent residential destination, depending on what else is on the person's wish list. As documented, however, housing is cheaper in Greater Cleveland than in Greater Columbus, certainly due to the higher population growth rate in Columbus.
Tell me honestly why Cleveland, with the bounty of riches you see, can't even keep its own residents, let alone attract new ones? That's part of an honest discussion, not just cheerleading. You are quick to find flaws elsewhere, but rarely if ever acknowledge your own. You write page-long diatribes about Cleveland, but work to shut down any opposing conversation. In the end, debate with you has no merit.
Tell me honestly why Cleveland, with the bounty of riches you see, can't even keep its own residents, let alone attract new ones? That's part of an honest discussion, not just cheerleading. You are quick to find flaws elsewhere, but rarely if ever acknowledge your own. You write page-long diatribes about Cleveland, but work to shut down any opposing conversation. In the end, debate with you has no merit.
Well, there are arguments to be made that Cleveland is now doing better attracting educated (i.e. taxpaying) citizens, while still shedding a lot of non-tax payers. This can be seen by which neighborhoods are growing and which are shrinking. Is a loss sometimes really a gain? I think so. Ideally, there would be gains across the board though. That is still probably 10 years away at least.
Other reasons Cleveland loses residents are pretty simple: more jobs elsewhere, extremely high crime in the city proper (even the nice neighborhoods carry a considerable risk of having car windows smashed for example, lots of suburbs are quite nice though), a general disdain for winter among many folks, retirees of an aging population moving to Florida, adults having fewer children, etc. Lots of reasons. But the main one I think is the first one. More jobs elsewhere. I moved. Not because I don't think Cleveland is great (I enjoy it much more than Boston on many levels).
But the reality was that if I wanted to get a good start to a real career (not just a string of jobs), it was looking difficult in Cleveland (tried for a year, most promising lead I had was this guy I randomly met on the rapid after an Indians game got me an interview for Quicken Loans- very resistible). Unless you are looking to be a doctor, nurse, scientist, etc. Even then, I'm sure it's easier elsewhere. I moved to Boston with zero connections, and now I'm moving up at one of their biggest universities. That just isn't even possible in Cleveland (or Columbus or Cincinnati, mind you). I think it's hard to get started in Cleveland, but perhaps easier once you're established more.
Personally I would love to move back. But for now, Spirit direct flights for $100 BOS-CLE are good enough.
Tell me honestly why Cleveland, with the bounty of riches you see, can't even keep its own residents, let alone attract new ones? That's part of an honest discussion, not just cheerleading. You are quick to find flaws elsewhere, but rarely if ever acknowledge your own. You write page-long diatribes about Cleveland, but work to shut down any opposing conversation. In the end, debate with you has no merit.
In post 143, I noted that downtown Cleveland was thumping downtown Cleveland and downtown Cincinnati in population growth. I asked YOU to explain how that was possible. Still waiting for an answer.
In other posts I've noted that per capita income remains higher in Cleveland than in both Columbus and Cincinnati.
The economies of Greater Cleveland, northeastern Ohio and even northern Ohio comprised one of the world's great manufacturing centers in decades past. Many of these jobs have been lost due to a combination of horrid federal industrial, foreign and tax policies (and I'm not talking about trade pacts as much as the failure to deal with the competitive disadvantage of being the only significant nation in the world that is not a participant in the global value added tax regime and the immense amount of wealth and human capital lost in the nation's foreign entanglements, especially from the Vietnam War forward).
Recently these inexcusable national policy failures have been compounded by the Republican Toll Road, making the I-80/I-90 corridor through northern Ohio and Indiana one of the most expensive stretches of interstate highway in the nation, if not the most expensive, with massive toll increases still ahead in the future. So the destruction of the northern Ohio manufacturing base unfortunately may not have reached a nadir.
Please explain why northern Ohio should be burdened with tolls on its main interstate artery while the I-70 corridor through Columbus remains free? Once again, what's YOUR answer???
I've explained this repeatedly for years, and still you don't grasp it. How is that even possible???
You're great at repeatedly asking questions that already have been answered, but pathetic at answering questions addressed to you.
The reality is that Cleveland, and especially downtown Cleveland, has emerged as the most exciting of the three downtown Cs, and that is especially true of the comparison of downtown Cleveland with downtown Columbus. Additionally, downtown Cleveland is linked by both the 24/7 Healthline bus rapid and the Red Line rail rapid with the Greater University Circle neighborhood, one the nation's great cultural and medical centers.
Here's another example of what makes downtown Cleveland exciting:
Add the mounting prominence of PlayhouseSquare to NBA and MLB play-off runs in recent years, the successful hosting of the Republican National Convention, Cleveland's other great cultural assets, and the presence of a great natural wonder in Lake Erie, and it certainly seems possible that Cleveland finally will make an economic transition away from its manufacturing past. Unfortunately, the policy-driven destruction of northern Ohio's manufacturing base is not only bad for Greater Cleveland, it's a tragedy for both Ohio and the entire nation.
Residents of Columbus and Cincinnati may begin to experience some of Cleveland's woes as traditional retailers headquartered in those cities contract or even disappear given the onslaught of online retailing, as budget pressures and likely AI contract Ohio state government employment, and, in Cincinnati's case, as China continues to ramp up its aircraft manufacturing industry.
Cincinnati's manufacturing industries are every bit as vulnerable to the nation's pathetic industrial policies as are those manufacturing industries that once called Greater Cleveland home.
Ohio as a whole has suffered greatly as the Midwest in recent decades has subsidized disaster prone parts of the nation with over a trillion dollars of disaster relief, including hundreds of billions in the past year. Our reward -- a cap on the deduction of state and local taxes in the new federal tax bill as Congresspersons from southern states claimed that we were gaming the federal tax system by paying our own way even as they demand ever-larger financial tribute from the rest of the nation; nobody ever mentions that San Francisco borrowed immense sums in order to rebuild after its 1906 earthquake destroyed that city. Houston builds in flood plains and ignores warnings about paving over prairies and we're expected to pay for its reconstruction and even its flood abatement programs, while our ability to pay for our own social services is trashed?
Gotta love our Republican legislators who seemingly never miss an opportunity gut our state and especially northern Ohio. Now the Trump administration and the Republicans have proposed slashing mass transit funding in order to fund its infrastructure bill; mass transit apparently isn't considered infrastructure by Republicans.
Actually, I have a bad feeling about the future of not the Greater Cleveland economy, but also of the Ohio and U.S. economies, given the rapid increase in federal issued debt and much larger amount of unfunded liabilities, amid policies that mostly benefit special interests and disproportionately the very wealthy.
Was Columbus frozen in some kind of ice age until recently?
My point is, while Cleveland obviously had some advantages, there was never really anything stopping Columbus's development. The fact that they became interested in annexation doesn't mean anything is new. We see "new" used in the context of being an explainer as to why Columbus lacks some basic things you expect when you go to a city. The reasons for Cleveland's development and Columbus's lack of have nothing to do with being new or old (Columbus was incorporated before Cleveland).
Columbus is not on navigable water like the other two Cs so it had very little of the heavy industry that made CLE and CIN major cities back when manufacturing was king. Columbus has become a major up and comer due to the shift in the American economy to white collar service industry jobs. Who are the new up and coming cities? Austin, Columbus, Raleigh, NC and maybe Nashville. What do they have? Intellectual capital being produced at local flagship universities. Take a look at the Amazon top 20 and you will see nearly all have intellectual capital being minted close by in quantity.
Last edited by Clever nickname here; 02-20-2018 at 01:58 PM..
A) All the C's are roughly the same size. You are making a rookie mistake by being wowed by Cbus city proper population. By that metric, Columbus is bigger than Boston and San Francisco. Do you believe that? I'll give you the opportunity to figure this one out.
B) City Data Forum usage is not a great metric for much anything about a city. Besides, city data is for a strange crowd of people- lots of somewhat nerdy folks that skew older. If you want a better vibe, you should be on reddit for these various cities.
C) Lots of people in Columbus are from Cleveland or Cincinnati areas. Even though they may live in Cbus, people from the other C's tend to never "abandon" their hometown. They probably also frequently go home. There simply aren't as many people "from" Columbus as there are the other two C's.
I see a lot of what I saw in Austin where they came from Houston and DFW to go to UT and never want to leave. Cbus is a liberal magnet in a mostly conservative area.
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