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I was thinking about people at large in Ohio not forum posters. The question was about how Ohioans view the three C's and only those cities. I'm saying that if you ask someone from Akron which C is more important, they will probably say Cleveland. Someone from Dayton would probably say Cincinnati. You are not reading what is actually there my man. I am not "inflating populations" at all. It's a straight answer of the question as I see it.
I somewhat misread your post, sorry.
That said, "importance" can be measured in all sorts of arbitrary ways. As you said, the 3 are virtually identical in size and GDP. After that, it will come down to random measures of homerism. For example, I could say that Columbus is obviously the most important to Ohioans considering that it has a net population gain from every other metro in the state. Someone else could disagree because it's a smaller media market, making Cleveland #1. Another could say that Cin-Day means that obviously Cincinnati is the most important. Yet another could say that Cleveland/Cincinnati are equally more important because they have pro football. This is just another thread to tilt at windmills.
That said, "importance" can be measured in all sorts of arbitrary ways. As you said, the 3 are virtually identical in size and GDP. After that, it will come down to random measures of homerism. For example, I could say that Columbus is obviously the most important to Ohioans considering that it has a net population gain from every other metro in the state. Someone else could disagree because it's a smaller media market, making Cleveland #1. Another could say that Cin-Day means that obviously Cincinnati is the most important. Yet another could say that Cleveland/Cincinnati are equally more important because they have pro football. This is just another thread to tilt at windmills.
Oh sure I don't think there is a clear answer to the objective question of "importance." Honestly from the outside, I don't get the sense that any Ohio city has a much larger reputation than others nationally. I hear more about Cleveland, but in pretty superficial ways that don't actually matter (i.e. Lebron, the Browns are terrible, etc). Certainly, depending on how "importance" is defined, I think every C can make a case.
The only caveats to this would be it's downward trajectory over the past 50 years, which gives a bit of a depressed feeling to the city.
My problem with this comment, as a patron of the arts and as someone who enjoys pro sports, Cleveland IMO is the most exciting of the three cities. When the weather is good, Cleveland's downtown can be extremely vibrant. E.g., have you or any of the other Cleveland naysayers been to the East Flats in the last year? Is there anything like the seasonal FWD: Day + Night in Cincinnati or Columbus? The East Flats entertainment district didn't even exist five years ago. And Cleveland sits on Lake Erie with cruise ships, several large marinas, fresh water surf beaches, lake kayaking, lake fishing, etc.
There are three other entertainment/dining districts in downtown Cleveland, plus Tremont and the Market District just across the Cuyahoga River from downtown.
The population density of Cleveland proper is over 25 percent higher than Columbus, which, surprisingly, has a population density slightly higher than Cincinnati. As noted in an earlier post, Cleveland's downtown residential population will reach 18,000 in 2018, which I suspect is much higher than in Columbus (can't find a number online) or Cincinnati (apparently 6,000)
Cleveland admittedly has some depressing neighborhoods, but so does Columbus and I suspect Cincinnati.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weaubleau
The other thing that does not get mentioned is the weather. Cleveland's weather is a deal breaker to me, with the extra snow it gets and the cloud cover. It's like living in London or Seattle, if those cities also got a real winter.
Cincinnati and Columbus actually are only marginally less cloudy than than Cleveland, especially in the summer.
Likely, the extra cloudiness in Cleveland results from Lake Erie, which most persons would see as an excellent trade-off.
Cleveland proper averages 30 more inches of snow annually than Columbus, but it likely is less bothersome than in Columbus due to the vastly superior snow removal and road treatment capabilities in northeast Ohio. The lake effect snowbelt northeast of Cleveland gets much more snow, but many residents there actually enjoy the snow and have wonderful parks for sledding, tubing, cross country skiing, even downhill skiing and snow boarding, etc. And the Lake Erie climate also bestows Ohio's top wine district (the Grand River Valley) on the Northeastern Ohio snow belt.
Cincinnati- also lots of history and culture, with the caveat that it is conservative with both a large and small c, a bit moribund, but also with a touch of German culture and southern culture if that is your thing. Amenities almost as good as Cleveland, and like Cleveland has been a big city for a long time.
I don't remotely agree, that Cincinnati's cultural amenities or pro sports (no winter NBA or NHL franchise in Cincinnati) are almost as good as in Cleveland, and this arguably is an objective not a subjective opinion.
The Cleveland Museum of Art and the Cleveland Orchestra are much more significant and with much better facilities and much greater endowments and budgets than their Cincinnati counterparts. Having said that, Cincinnati is a cultural gem compared to newer cities such as Columbus and many larger sunbelt cities.
The new COSI -- American Museum of Natural History in Columbus is a wonderful addition to the Columbus scene. I haven't visited the Cincinnati natural history museum in several years, nor the Cleveland Museum of Natural History since recent additions as part of a major renovation and expansion project, but I doubt if either Cleveland or Cincinnati has a dinosaur exhibit remotely as good as the one now at COSI based on a recent visit.
More people will say Cincinnati and Cleveland because more people from there post here and homerism is virulent. There really is no other reason. I think people in/from Ohio far overestimate the relative perceptions of their cities. From everything I have seen/heard/read, Cleveland has the worst reputation outside of the state, followed by Cincinnati and then Columbus.
I've repeatedly posted many New York Times articles praising Cleveland. A January link from the NYT is linked in the preceding post in this thread. Cleveland hosted the Republican National Convention to great acclaim. Anybody can read these threads and decide for themselves whether your negative perception of Cleveland is worth much.
All anybody needs to do is read "Things to do" reviews for all three cities at tripadvisor.com and they'll see a vast difference in the perception of the three cities by actual visitors.
I will agree that nationally, Cleveland has more notoriety but only marginally so than Cincinnati, and for pretty superficial reasons. Cincinnati seems to be a huge deal in that Indiana/Kentucky/Tennessee area, but outside of those areas you rarely hear much on Cincinnati. Columbus actually has pretty good name recognition because of OSU, but besides that I guess there isn't much...
Cleveland is regarded more because it does have a long tradition as a sports town, and while Cincy is older, Cleveland was bigger and more powerful at its peak. Bit nobody really puts Cleveland on the level of cities like even Baltimore or Denver...
I also 1000% agree it's Ohioans who have this fetish for boosting their stats. Outside of Ohio, many people know Akron is near Cleveland, or Dayton is near Cincinnati, but no one acts as if those smaller areas make Cleveland and Cincinnati more important than they actually are....except online Ohioans lol...
All these anecdotes are coming from someone whose lived in seven different states, is originally from California, raised mostly in the Mid-Atlantic South, and while I haven't been everywhere, I've been to most states and most major cities 1 million-plus (more than half on each count). So these are just observances from a well-traveled guy...
Also, our consideration in moving to Ohio has little consideration for jobs. I have a very stable career in hospitality that pays pretty well, with excellent projected future earnings, benefits, 401(k). My fiance is thinking of switching careers, from hospitality to nursing or social service. We found out yesterday that we're pregnant with baby #2, so this will further play into where we wind up. As far as Ohio goes, I think Columbus seems like our best fit, but she really LOVES Cleveland and we both also want to check Cincinnati out. So our projected move is somewhere between 11/2019 to 5/2020, so we have time here to figure out everything the way we want it!
Last edited by murksiderock; 02-05-2018 at 08:00 PM..
I also 1000% agree it's Ohioans who have this fetish for boosting their stats. Outside of Ohio, many people know Akron is near Cleveland, or Dayton is near Cincinnati, but no one acts as if those smaller areas make Cleveland and Cincinnati more important than they actually are....except online Ohioans lol...
All these anecdotes are coming from someone whose lived in seven different states, is originally from California, raised mostly in the Mid-Atlantic South, and while I haven't been everywhere, I've been to most states and most major cities 1 million-plus (more than half on each count). So these are just observances from a well-traveled guy...
The reality is that the Akron metro area is very important to Cleveland and the Dayton metro is very important to Cincinnati. E.g., the populations in the Akron (which is 40 miles from Cleveland) and Dayton (which is 50 miles from Cincinnati) support the pro sports franchises and other cultural institutions in the two Cs.
I don't know much about Cincinnati/Dayton integration, but the medical systems and even business communities in Cleveland and Akron are increasingly integrated. Akron General now is part of the Cleveland Clinic system. Even Cleveland's cultural institutions are supported by those with strong connections to Akron, such as Fred and Laura Bidwell, important patrons of both the Akron and Cleveland art museums. Cleveland's PlayhouseSquare now programs the Broadway tour season at the University of Akron's excellent EJ Thomas Performing Arts Hall, allowing Akron's excellent performing arts center to continue to prosper amid UA budget cutbacks.
Akron certainly is part of the Cleveland media market. Cleveland.com covers cultural events in Akron as well as Univ. of Akron sports. Similarly Ohio.com (Akron Beacon Journal) covers Cleveland pro sports and cultural events in Cleveland.
Both the Summit (Akron) Metro Parks and the Cleveland Metroparks are important partners with the Cuyahoga Valley National Park (which incorporates parts of both systems with federally owned land) in building a natural treasure in the midst of the Cleveland/Akron megalopolis, and a superb bike trail system which stretches into both counties. The unique relationship between these two large county park systems and the National Park Service helps explain why there is no admission charge to the CVNP nor is the CVNP closed down (even though services are slashed) during federal budget shutdowns. Metropark systems in Ohio also have their own, often sizable police forces.
The Cleveland Orchestra's Blossom Music Center is located inside Cuyahoga Valley National Park in the center of Summit County, much closer to downtown Akron than downtown Cleveland.
The Ohio Board of Regents even has forced the Univ. of Akron and Cleveland State University to engage in complimentary specialization in order to reduce the expense of duplicate programs.
Consider also that Summit County (Akron) is adjacent to Cuyahoga County (Cleveland), and is included in the Akron metropolitan statistical area and not in the Greater Cleveland MSA. This important factor always is omitted when persons question why the combined statistical area of Cleveland/Akron is much more important than in Cincinnati or Columbus, where all adjacent counties are included in those cities' metropolitan statistical areas. Cleveland Magazine annually rates Cleveland suburbs and Richfield, located in Summit County and the Akron MSA is always listed as one of the best Cleveland suburbs. It is located equidistant between Cleveland and Akron and is only 20 miles (30-minute drive) from downtown Cleveland.
Even Cleveland's and Akron's histories are greatly intertwined. When Cleveland won the political battle to become the northern terminus of the Ohio and Erie Canal, Cleveland mushroomed as a Lake Erie port and Akron as a canal port shipping goods through Cleveland to NYC by way of the Erie Canal in NY state. E.g., Akron developed a significant oats milling industry which eventually was consolidated into the Quaker Oats Company.
These aren't anecdotes, but reality, and living in other states confers no special knowledge, or even much knowledge, on the realities of the Cleveland/Akron or Cincinnati/Dayton relationships. lol.
These aren't anecdotes, but reality, and living in other states confers no special knowledge, or even much knowledge, on the realities of the Cleveland/Akron or Cincinnati/Dayton relationships. lol.
Your snarkiness and defensiveness can make you sound like a real jerk sometimes. Did i say that my anecdotes gave me special knowledge of Ohio? I was clearly doubling on the point of a previous post, which said they didn't believe non-Ohioans put a lot of weight on Akron and Dayton associations with Cleveland and Cincinnati; my point was that is probably a true observation because I haven't met many non-locals who have that tendency...
Calm down, brother. Your habit of jumping the gun and spamming a page worth of info on the same futile defense of Cleveland, even when no one is attacking Cleveland, is bordering on annoying. I know how your posts are gonna read before I read them. Chill out...
I also 1000% agree it's Ohioans who have this fetish for boosting their stats. Outside of Ohio, many people know Akron is near Cleveland, or Dayton is near Cincinnati, but no one acts as if those smaller areas make Cleveland and Cincinnati more important than they actually are....except online Ohioans lol...
All these anecdotes are coming from someone whose lived in seven different states, is originally from California, raised mostly in the Mid-Atlantic South, and while I haven't been everywhere, I've been to most states and most major cities 1 million-plus (more than half on each count). So these are just observances from a well-traveled guy...
Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock
Your snarkiness and defensiveness can make you sound like a real jerk sometimes. Did i say that my anecdotes gave me special knowledge of Ohio? I was clearly doubling on the point of a previous post, which said they didn't believe non-Ohioans put a lot of weight on Akron and Dayton associations with Cleveland and Cincinnati; my point was that is probably a true observation because I haven't met many non-locals who have that tendency...
You "1,000% agree" Ohioans have a "fetish for boosting their stats," and that the relatively significant populations of Akron and Dayton have no significance on the importance of Cleveland or Cincinnati, except to "online Ohioans lol?"
When someone responds to your ignorant insults with facts, even pointing out that Akron is in a county adjacent to Cleveland's Cuyahoga County, you plead injury, saying you were merely agreeing with someone else's ignorant assertion? And your "lol" had no intent to mock posters in the Ohio forum???
Making false, insulting statements, and then blasting someone who responds with facts and explains why your belief is preposterous? Shades of the Great Orange One, who yesterday came to Ohio to accuse his political opponents of being treasonous, partially because they didn't clap during his State of the Union address.
Locusts almost would be better than the constant barrage of fools that are inflicted on Ohioans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock
Calm down, brother. Your habit of jumping the gun and spamming a page worth of info on the same futile defense of Cleveland, even when no one is attacking Cleveland, is bordering on annoying. I know how your posts are gonna read before I read them. Chill out...
Yeah, facts are futile when dealing with minds seemingly incapable of rational thought. Such minds when presented with a reasoned dismantling of their bumptious arguments, inevitably react with belittling comments towards the provider of the facts that prove the inaccuracy of their fallacious statements.
In your mind, I'm a "spammer" for explaining that Akron's Summit County is adjacent to Cleveland's Cuyahoga County, a fact apparently not understood by you let alone all of those other "non-Ohioans" whose similar ignorance is so important to you? A detailed listing of some of some of the cultural, commercial, and close geographical linkages of Cleveland and Akron are irrelevant to the issue at hand?
Sorry, but I intend to always annoy the posters of disparaging rubbish.
Part of what people are saying must be unique to Ohioans and whatnot is partially because they don't actually know what people in other cities do. For example, people in Boston DO refer to the Boston area as stretching down to Providence, up to Nashua, out to Worcester. That doesn't mean they think Worcester is the same thing as Boston, but if you're asking people about how big this area is, they won't say it's small because the city population is only 650k. The difference is, Boston doesn't have a city in the area that it competes with. The closest major city is New York, which is quite a hell of a comparison to make.
St Louis vs Kansas City is a thing. All those Texan cities too.
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