Anyone move to the Youngstown/Warren/Boardman metro???? (Cleveland, Austintown: 2010, apartments)

[CortlandGirl79]

i don't know what you mean by historical center, but you could visit the Arms Museum and the Museum of Labor and Industry. I also think the Packard Car Show is next weekend (up in Warren), not sure if you'll be here then.

[CortlandGirl79]

Thought i would share this nice story about a couple that moved to the city's Northside.

For 12 years, the couple moved from Las Vegas to Chicago to Harrisburg, pursuing education and following job offers. In 2004, the couple decided to take jobs that would bring them back to Youngstown, closer to family and the memories of childhood.

Jay Rupe teaches engineering classes at Trumbull Career and Technical Center, and Kim Rupe is an educational assistant with the Youngstown city schools.

“Youngstown is a central location,” said Jay Rupe, adding that it’s a quick trip to Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Akron and Columbus.

After fire, couple rebuild dream home, stay put in city - Vindy.com News - Local & Regional News - Youngstown, Warren, Columbiana, Ohio

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Originally Posted by JR_C

Defend Youngstown blog I WILL SHOUT YOUNGSTOWN The Youngstown Renaissance blog The Mahoning Valley View blog The Art Youngstown blog The Youngstown Moxie blog and Tales from the Rust Belt

why are these blogs consistently held up as supposed proof that youngstown is changing? does the ability to have a blogspot hosted blog suddenly make these people authoritative?

while positivity is in short supply in the youngstown area, people blogging with good intentions is unusual. being able to dream is one thing, but so far, the efforts of the blogosphere has yet to yield much more than blog posts. one job has been created so far by the youngstown blogosphere, and that was for one of their own.

the group of mostly 20-somethings who make up the "youngstown blogosphere" are much more a well-organized minority committed to the gentrification of the city that they claim to already love so much. which they do. so to, do many of the people they wish to displace if youngstown actually were to get big again.
the thing is, since this is youngstown, very few people have enough capital to start turning property in bad parts of town and start pumping up the property value and actually attract successful small businesses to start the cycle. the weather, union sentiment, and corrupt county government discourage outside investors from doing the same. change by way of the traditional model of gentrification is quite a bit out of their reach.

this all raises the question of if they truly love the city, why does it need to be gentrified? each blogger has a different latent motivation for wanting youngstown to become gentrified. some have bought property in bad parts of town and need to turn it over for profit in their lifetimes. some are artists that have tried to make it in bigger cities, but were not able to do so. some have micro-businesses they are trying to get off the ground. others just love to type, and if the blog were not about youngstown, it would be about themselves. a-ha! to be able to claim credit for "making a difference" is a powerful ego-boost.

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Originally Posted by 1phwalls

Specifically talking about Youngstown, there are no jobs if you actually want to make more than minimum wage. The public schools are horrible. And the crime rate is high.

this is the general feeling of people in youngstown. we can discuss it on the internet all we want, it won't change the sentiment on the ground (which i do know because i visit at least twice a month).


no company wants to move to youngstown from outside because of the strong union sentiment, the cold weather, and corrupt county and local governments. there are no businesses being formed here because of the brain drain which pushes away people with any new ideas for business.

the smaller tax base, and until the last election the people voting against the schools, is helping to ruin the public schools even more. if youngstown can start annexing some areas, this may have a chance to become less of a problem.

between not having any good paying jobs, the boredom of nothing to do until very recently, and a historically organized underworld providing a steady stream of drugs it is also no wonder crime is so rampant in youngstown.

[JR_C]

Originally Posted by 000000

why are these blogs consistently held up as supposed proof that youngstown is changing? does the ability to have a blogspot hosted blog suddenly make these people authoritative?

while positivity is in short supply in the youngstown area, people blogging with good intentions is unusual. being able to dream is one thing, but so far, the efforts of the blogosphere has yet to yield much more than blog posts. one job has been created so far by the youngstown blogosphere, and that was for one of their own.

A change in attitude is the first thing that will need to happen before Youngstown really starts to turn around. Just as an example, places like Atlanta and Minneapolis have crime rates that are comparable to Youngstown's. Yet, most people in Youngstown assume that our crime rate is one of the primary reasons we are so behind economically. Or, to say it another way, crime is also rampant in these 2 locations (along with many others) but they don't seem to make such a big deal about it--to the point of driving people away.

The effects of these blogs is intangible. But, at the very least, they show people that there is more to Youngstown than crime and blight. 1phwalls didn't seem to realize that one could see the city the way I do, until I pointed the positives out to her in this thread.

the group of mostly 20-somethings who make up the "youngstown blogosphere" are much more a well-organized minority committed to the gentrification of the city that they claim to already love so much. which they do. so to, do many of the people they wish to displace if youngstown actually were to get big again.

I don't think this is true. Or, at least, that's not the impression I get from reading their blogs. They only seem interested in making improvments to their community--making a Youngstown without the blight and crime issues. (I suppose that gentrification might be a side effect) Frankly I am all for gentrification. I'd be very happy if my property value doubled to become more in-line with the rest of the region. But, I don't have a blog.

the weather, union sentiment, and corrupt county government discourage...

I happen to like the weather. Why, as a society, do we suddenly need to have sunny weather and warm temperatures all the time?

I somewhat agree about the union sentiment. The inflatable rat at construction sites seems unnecessary.

I still have a hard time seeing corruption. What are some examples? One thing I did see was the trouble the county went through to move their offices into the Oakhill Renaissance Place. (old South Side Hospital for those who don't know) But, they did manage to make the move despite the corruption. So, maybe it isn't as strong as it once was?

each blogger has a different latent motivation for wanting youngstown to become gentrified. some have bought property in bad parts of town and need to turn it over for profit in their lifetimes. some are artists that have tried to make it in bigger cities, but were not able to do so. some have micro-businesses they are trying to get off the ground. others just love to type, and if the blog were not about youngstown, it would be about themselves.

Can you back this up, or are these just reasons you've thought up so you can better justify to yourself why they would claim to love this city?

a-ha! to be able to claim credit for "making a difference" is a powerful ego-boost.

It is. That's one of the reasons I've cited for liking it here. But, the reality is that one person CAN make a difference here.

[CortlandGirl79]

I think you are wrong if you think the bloggers aren't doing anything. I know Phil Kidd from Defend Youngstown is very involved in the community as are other bloggers. I'm pretty sure Phil has been very involved w/the revitalization of Wick Park. He was also an event planner for the city of Youngstown until a couple of weeks ago. While in that position he helped to bring events downtown as well as free movies for residents. Also, many 20 and 30 somethings started a Youngstown kickball league for young people to be able to have fun and network. I think these are all good things happening the Yo.

As for no one wanting to bring jobs here or brain drain, this is true to some extent. Thankfully, we do
have the Business Incubator and the wonderful companies that are located there. Just in case you didn't know, several B2B software companies have relocated to downtown Youngstown thanks to the Incubator. I know a couple moved here from Akron.

In 2001, few thought that we could launch a single company from here. To date, we have successfully launched 18 firms, including the fastest growing software company in the country.

In about a year, we will open our third building on our growing campus.
In 2010, hopefully our forth. And in 2012, maybe our fifth.

World class software companies prospering in Youngstown, Ohio.

Youngstown Business Incubator

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Originally Posted by JR_C

Just as an example, places like Atlanta and Minneapolis have crime rates that are comparable to Youngstown's.

youngstown, at it's peak is not comparable to either of those cities, though. both atlanta and minneapolis are much bigger. smaller cities need different solutions, which is something that jay williams, at least, seems to understand. nonetheless,

Originally Posted by JR_C

The effects of these blogs is intangible. But, at the very least, they show people that there is more to Youngstown than crime and blight. 1phwalls didn't seem to realize that one could see the city the way I do, until I pointed the positives out to her in this thread.

what would get youngstowners believing again is something tangible. that is what has been lacking for so many years. the problem with blogs, and indeed "raising awareness" is that the action creates a false sense of empowerment. it feels good to be doing "something", and even better to take credit for doing something. plus, the size of the task is so large for youngstown that there will always be something to type about. however, does the street outside still not have a pothole? can you still drive while white in youngstown and not get pulled over for traffic violations because the cops have more important issues to deal with? is there not constant bickering on wkbn about how things are run? do the suburban fishes still not want to be the big fish inside of a plastic bag? aren't peoples' houses still getting robbed of copper? i can see how people want to believe in the city of youngstown, it does have some good points. it also does so many problems. most of those problems stem from people not having money. if the positive people can admit to, at this point in time, have very rose-tinted glasses then i would be able to accept the charge that my glasses can be a bit cobalt. still, growing up after the mills closed, and through the effective corruption hanni and traficant and honest incompetency of morley and gains, to seeing the beloved steelhounds go the way of the youngstown pride, phar-mor, and the steel mills, one can understand the skepticism... and be a called a negative nancy for reminding people of the past which forms the present and the future.

Originally Posted by JR_C

I don't think this is true. Or, at least, that's not the impression I get from reading their blogs. They only seem interested in making improvments to their community--making a Youngstown without the blight and crime issues. (I suppose that gentrification might be a side effect) Frankly I am all for gentrification. I'd be very happy if my property value doubled to become more in-line with the rest of the region. But, I don't have a blog.

i would love for property to be worth more in the youngstown area. people i know would really benefit from having something of more worth. i just do not see how this is possible without displacing most of the city's residents because their property values are so low. i consider moving in and trying to convince other college-educated white people to move into pockets within some of the worst parts of youngstown to be an attempt at gentrification. i don't know what else it could be considered. they do not seem to be thinking of ways for their neighbors to get news jobs as much as they seem to be trying to convince other college educated whites that they should move in as new neighbors.

Originally Posted by JR_C

I happen to like the weather. Why, as a society, do we suddenly need to have sunny weather and warm temperatures all the time?

i agree with you about the weather. it is not that bad to live in. still, if one were to open a business that potentially would bring in jobs, it would be prudent to do it as cheaply as possible. right to work states tend to be cheaper to heat and get a workforce together within.

Originally Posted by JR_C

I somewhat agree about the union sentiment. The inflatable rat at construction sites seems unnecessary.

it is totally undesirable if you want other businesses to move in. the entire rust belt is not in a position to be able to intimidate businesses like this.

Originally Posted by JR_C

I still have a hard time seeing corruption. What are some examples? One thing I did see was the trouble the county went through to move their offices into the Oakhill Renaissance Place. (old South Side Hospital for those who don't know) But, they did manage to make the move despite the corruption. So, maybe it isn't as strong as it once was?

the thing about corruption is that it is not out in the open. it is more an invisible weight that comes down when anyone you know tries to do something.

Originally Posted by JR_C

Can you back this up, or are these just reasons you've thought up so you can better justify to yourself why they would claim to love this city?

i have personally talked with some of the blog writers. we had to disagree about the likelihood of change without solid job creation. getting a million bars downtown to host the same few local bands is not going to cut it. i have not talked to all of them, obviously, since i applied some critical thinking to their aspirations. that blacklists you out of their clique. while there is always a degree of conjecture as to what goes on in another person's mind, it is easy to pinpoint that, at least within the youngstown blogosphere as such, that each of them are either fulfilling some personal need or co-opting the "movement" (t-shirts which used to be free) to market themselves. it would be fine if they did this in their own name, instead of attaching their upper middle-class aspirations to an entire city. plus, there are already parts of some suburbs where they can have some of these things.

Originally Posted by JR_C

It is. That's one of the reasons I've cited for liking it here. But, the reality is that one person CAN make a difference here.

i fear there are not enough good ones. there sure are some bad ones, though.

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Originally Posted by CortlandGirl79

I think you are wrong if you think the bloggers aren't doing anything.

i think the power of blogging is overrated. they sure have been able to network themselves quickly, but they essentially are still only advertising to themselves.

Originally Posted by CortlandGirl79

I know Phil Kidd from Defend Youngstown is very involved in the community as are other bloggers.

so are plenty of many of the pre-blog advocates who have been there since the 80's and 90's. you have to bless them for sticking it out. you can't link to them, so they must not exist. sadly, those youngstown advocates also have not been able to get any job creation.

Originally Posted by CortlandGirl79

I'm pretty sure Phil has been very involved w/the revitalization of Wick Park. He was also an event planner for the city of Youngstown until a couple of weeks ago. While in that position he helped to bring events downtown as well as free movies for residents. Also, many 20 and 30 somethings started a Youngstown kickball league for young people to be able to have fun and network. I think these are all good things happening the Yo.

it is great that phil kidd was able to parlay a blog and thinkers and drinkers into a job with the city. i do have to wonder, though, if he would feel as warmly about youngstown if he were "youngstown-born youngstown-bread". the youngstown community can really be close-knit and suspicious of outsiders. it makes sense, they have been hurt many times before. we should also note that there are many other groups of 20 to 30 somethings to whom this blogosphere is not reaching, and will never reach. it is nice that one clique is organizing, but let us not start including everyone in town over a tiny minority of the college educated whites who decided to stay. still, it must be said that to most in the city, bar bands have always been in youngstown at cedar's and the royal oaks. major motion pictures regularly come to the theaters in the suburbs. the entertainment is not new, just the organization of getting them all at one point in time. the only bar which could bring in national bands recently was the nyabinghi, which has closed and looks like it has been looted (perhaps by the pagans mc down the road). the agora moved to cleveland many moons ago.

Originally Posted by CortlandGirl79

As for no one wanting to bring jobs here or brain drain, this is true to some extent.

i would say to a large extent. even if we disagree on extent, i do not know how a metropolitan area can ever expect to turn a corner without jobs for people to work or new blood coming in. not having both leads to stagnation, much like youngstown continues to have.

Originally Posted by CortlandGirl79

Thankfully, we

if i am to believe your name, you would be someone who lives in cortland. warren is a different world from youngstown; and one that is not as dysfunctional as youngstown. granted, there is a big brother-little brother thing between the two of them. nonetheless, the little bro is not as screwed up. it would be somewhat easier to change warren for the better to influence youngstown than wait on youngstown to change warren.

Originally Posted by CortlandGirl79

do have the Business Incubator and the wonderful companies that are located there. Just in case you didn't know, several B2B software companies have relocated to downtown Youngstown thanks to the Incubator.

the incubator is a good idea. i wouldn't place all my eggs in it due to the experimental nature of the whole idea of an incubator. maybe something will come from it. however, youngstown will never be a silicon valley lite. there are too many other contenders for that title all over the country. for all of the ideas people are trying in youngstown, most of them not coming from the mayor's office are not novel enough to attract attention. a new idea may still yet come from youngstown, but there would have to be a reason what that brain would not drain away. especially if gm closes lordstown, which is a distinct possibility considering the state of the company.

[JR_C]

Originally Posted by 000000

youngstown, at it's peak is not comparable to either of those cities, though. both atlanta and minneapolis are much bigger. smaller cities need different solutions, which is something that jay williams, at least, seems to understand.

Why aren't they comparable? When I write "crime rate," I mean crimes per 100,000 people. The number of actual crimes in Youngstown are WELL below the number of crimes in Atlanta, for example.

nonetheless, what would get youngstowners believing again is something tangible. that is what has been lacking for so many years.

Perhaps I'm a bit dubious because I read the Vindy message boards too often. But I'm not so sure even a tangible change would get some area residents believing again. You seem much more reasonable than many of the posters on the Vindy boards, so I'm sure you were happy to read, when it was reported in June, that Youngstown's overall crime rate has dropped by 13%. But, what I read on the Vindy boards was disbelief; the police were falsifying numbers instead. This is one reason why the Youngstown blogs are necessary. To illustrate that the reality isn't the same (and is often better) than the perception of Youngstown.

however, does the street outside still not have a pothole?

I'm a member of the local Garden District neighborhood group. When the Youngstown street dept. did a poor job of patching some of our streets, we told the councilwoman at our next meeting. Soon after, the street dept. was back to do a better job.

One thing the blogs encourage is community involvement like I describe above. For too long, many people simply didn't care anymore. Or, they cared but didn't know what to do about it. Or, they did know the proper channels to get something done, but didn't have the strength of numbers to make the powers that be listen. It also helps that we now seem to have more people downtown who are willing to listen.

can you still drive while white in youngstown and not get pulled over for traffic violations because the cops have more important issues to deal with?

I'm not sure what race has to do with this... But, during some of the "zero tolerance" patrols, I've seen many people pulled over for traffic violations. Again, on the Vindy boards, many of the posters feel as though they are being victimized because they're not allowed to break the law anymore.

aren't peoples' houses still getting robbed of copper?

Again, this isn't unique to Youngstown. With the poor economy and high price of copper, this is happening all over the U.S.

still, growing up after the mills closed, and through the effective corruption hanni and traficant and honest incompetency of morley and gains, to seeing the beloved steelhounds go the way of the youngstown pride, phar-mor, and the steel mills, one can understand the skepticism...

And, I think this is where the biggest difference lies. Many of the pro-Youngstowners (certainly not all of them!!!) are younger, and don't have the baggage of the closing mills.

and be a called a negative nancy for reminding people of the past which forms the present and the future.

Sure, we should learn from history. But, you shouldn't let past failures paralyze you, either.

i consider moving in and trying to convince other college-educated white people to move into pockets within some of the worst parts of youngstown to be an attempt at gentrification.

As you may have noticed, I work best with examples. So, can you provide me a link with an example of this?

i have personally talked with some of the blog writers. we had to disagree about the likelihood of change without solid job creation.

Job creation isn't likely to happen until you get more well-educated people to stay in (or come to) the area. The era of working in a factory or mill for the rest of your life, after getting out of high school, is coming to an end. I will admit, though, that it's still difficult for some people to find work even with an education. Right now, it depends on what kind of education you have. Teachers might have a very hard time finding a job in the area. But, I've read that some of the tech companies are having a hard time finding people to fill their open positions.

getting a million bars downtown to host the same few local bands is not going to cut it.

I work downtown, and I'll be the first to tell you that there aren't that many bars. Until we get more people living there, not many more cafes/restaurants/clubs/pubs will open. But, the idea is to make downtown a destination again. It will never be like it was 30-50 years ago. The malls and the commerical strip along 224 and 422 have seen to that. But it can be--and is becoming--a place where people want to go again.

i have not talked to all of them, obviously, since i applied some critical thinking to their aspirations. that blacklists you out of their clique.

If you had made the same assumptions about me, I'm not so sure I'd want to associate with you either.

it is easy to pinpoint that, at least within the youngstown blogosphere as such, that each of them are either fulfilling some personal need

I was once told there is no such thing as real altruism. I'm taking this time to reply to you because Youngstown is my adopted community, and I want to see its potential fulfilled. I want to see some of the neglected old houses in my neighborhood restored. Not, because this would raise my property value, (though it would) but because I like old houses and like to see them restored.

Starting next year, when bus service is restored/expanded, and I return to full time employment, I plan to do my best to buy and restore some of the houses that I'm talking about. I may not make a profit, but I have a personal need to make my neighborhood better because I see it everyday.

or co-opting the "movement" (t-shirts which used to be free) to market themselves.

I assume you're referring to Phil Kidd of Defend Youngstown? What is he marketing himself for? He quit his job with the city to work with the Mahoning Valley Organizing Collaborative. If he wanted to get his foot in the door at the city, resigning wasn't a good way to keep that door open.

i fear there are not enough good ones. there sure are some bad ones, though.

And we're back to why blogs are important--to "recruit" more good ones.

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Originally Posted by JR_C

Why aren't they comparable? When I write "crime rate," I mean crimes per 100,000 people. The number of actual crimes in Youngstown are WELL below the number of crimes in Atlanta, for example.

youngstown doesn't even have 100,000 people; nor does it have many other things big cities like atlanta and minneapolis have that might bring those thousands of people back.

plus, even in the good ol' days youngstown was known for crime. the mentality of the area actually enjoys the criminal mystique. thus, traficant can still get votes and people wear shirts celebrating the mafia. it made the area feel important.

Originally Posted by JR_C

Perhaps I'm a bit dubious because I read the Vindy message boards too often. But I'm not so sure even a tangible change would get some area residents believing again. You seem much more reasonable than many of the posters on the Vindy boards, so I'm sure you were happy to read, when it was reported in June, that Youngstown's overall crime rate has dropped by 13%. But, what I read on the Vindy boards was disbelief; the police were falsifying numbers instead. This is one reason why the Youngstown blogs are necessary. To illustrate that the reality isn't the same (and is often better) than the perception of Youngstown.

the vindy boards seem to bring out the worst people for some reason. i have no idea what it is. some of those are just as unreasonably negative as the y-town blogosphere is unreasonably positive. neither side is doing anything of any worth arguing on the internet. plus, those people argue my "side" poorly.

i also realize that i am not contributing anything by arguing here, either. i am merely writing about youngstown on the internet.

yet if the question under discussion is "should i move to the youngstown/boardman area?", my answer is clearly is a "no". there are no jobs here, no likelihood of jobs coming in, small town corrupt local governments, the likelihood of crime in certain areas, very little recreation (which is getting better, but is nowhere near enough), locals who carry around a sense of hopelessness and are not always open to outsiders, . the housing is cheap, though.

Originally Posted by JR_C

I'm a member of the local Garden District neighborhood group. When the Youngstown street dept. did a poor job of patching some of our streets, we told the councilwoman at our next meeting. Soon after, the street dept. was back to do a better job.

if they did it right the first time...

Originally Posted by JR_C

One thing the blogs encourage is community involvement like I describe above. For too long, many people simply didn't care anymore. Or, they cared but didn't know what to do about it. Or, they did know the proper channels to get something done, but didn't have the strength of numbers to make the powers that be listen. It also helps that we now seem to have more people downtown who are willing to listen.

the youngstown blogosphere's limited audience might be able to get the very motivated, but they are only writing to themselves. only one of them has taken the step of writing in the vindicator, and they have no chance in youngstown of ever getting on television.

so unless more people actually get involved with things like the garden club then all of the raised awareness is only going to be reaching themselves. i would not count on people leaving their houses, though, since you can still feel the apathy. you can feel the apathy because the causes of this mess are still not being dealt with.

Originally Posted by JR_C

I'm not sure what race has to do with this... But, during some of the "zero tolerance" patrols, I've seen many people pulled over for traffic violations. Again, on the Vindy boards, many of the posters feel as though they are being victimized because they're not allowed to break the law anymore.

well, there are two things that have to be mentioned about race in regards to this.
first, the youngstown blogosphere's lack of diversity speaks to a clique which is not interacting with a huge part of the city that they are trying to change. while they may be whipping themselves into a fury by being their own echo chamber, what have they done which is not in their own self-interest? how is a petition to have a trader joe's interesting for a non-yuppie?

second, i would feel safer if i were being pulled over for breaking speed limits and stop signs because then i would know that the police would be there 24/7/365 instead of over something else.

Originally Posted by JR_C

And, I think this is where the biggest difference lies. Many of the pro-Youngstowners (certainly not all of them!!!) are younger, and don't have the baggage of the closing mills.

instead they are young and want to change the world. if nothing changes, they will always be able to be part of the struggle. if things somehow change (jobs get created), they can take credit for wasting time behind a computer screen or going to a farmer's market.

Originally Posted by JR_C

Sure, we should learn from history. But, you shouldn't let past failures paralyze you, either.

it goes the other way, too. you can't actually do anything for the future if what you do does not deal with the situation as it has been made by the past. sure, there are negative attitudes in youngstown, but negative attitudes only came after everything else. positive attitudes add no new money to the economy.

Originally Posted by JR_C

Job creation isn't likely to happen until you get more well-educated people to stay in (or come to) the area. The era of working in a factory or mill for the rest of your life, after getting out of high school, is coming to an end. I will admit, though, that it's still difficult for some people to find work even with an education. Right now, it depends on what kind of education you have. Teachers might have a very hard time finding a job in the area. But, I've read that some of the tech companies are having a hard time finding people to fill their open positions.

the well-educated people will not stay if they have no jobs to go to- of which there are so very few. the less-educated will not stay if they are able to leave- so they can get a job somewhere else. now with lordstown possibly closing there will be even less money going around the area to encourage the small-business owner to start or move into youngstown.

yet, all of this will change if only we have positive attitudes?

Originally Posted by JR_C

I work downtown, and I'll be the first to tell you that there aren't that many bars. Until we get more people living there, not many more cafes/restaurants/clubs/pubs will open. But, the idea is to make downtown a destination again. It will never be like it was 30-50 years ago. The malls and the commerical strip along 224 and 422 have seen to that. But it can be--and is becoming--a place where people want to go again.

if you look downtown, what moved in after the chevy centre? bars. of all of the potential businesses that were thought possible with the chevy centre? bars. not even restaurants (although tomasino's did go late night). once those expensive apartments are built, where will these lawyers and bankers be within walking distance of? bars, courthouses, law offices, the ymca, the post office and banks. although, i do like being able to drive down federal. plus, mr. peanut is back on the bridge.

Originally Posted by JR_C

If you had made the same assumptions about me, I'm not so sure I'd want to associate with you either.

And we're back to why blogs are important--to "recruit" more good ones.

if people stopped conversing with you simply because they disagree with you, than you are only left with conjecture as to why they feel so strongly about their position in their absence. it is kind of like cortland girl not answering my responses; perhaps her optimism would crack under the reality on the ground and responding to my less than enthusiastic musings on youngstown shows her this? i do admit that i do respect you, jr c, then i do of others within the movement of sorts. you are willing to discuss things with someone who does not agree with you without telling me that "i do not understand" (which is the concession of an arguement in my eyes). you also may be seeing that i really wish youngstown would get better. our differences mainly are that i have seen positive attitudes achieve nothing in 20 years. the brains who would have cared are drained. the locals who stick behind are the ones which can not leave.
blogs merely are a technological way to "raise awareness", which though empowering and self-indulgent, do not produce anything other than links... and the internet is already full of links.

Originally Posted by JR_C

I was once told there is no such thing as real altruism.

i agree, thus, the echo chamber of the youngstown blogosphere has to serve some other purpose for the people involved who insist that positive attitudes will save the town. maybe it is just a folly of youth. positivity sure did not work for the people who tried in the 80's and 90's.

Originally Posted by JR_C

I'm taking this time to reply to you because Youngstown is my adopted community, and I want to see its potential fulfilled.

why did you choose to move to youngstown? i always have to ask people who choose to move in.

Originally Posted by JR_C

I want to see some of the neglected old houses in my neighborhood restored. Not, because this would raise my property value, (though it would) but because I like old houses and like to see them restored.

plus, everyone wants to live in a good neighborhood. too bad there are not more of them throughout the city- there would have been if there were any reason for people to move in. that said, i am glad that there are houses being torn down. downsizing makes sense with the situation as it is now; especially with no job growth and the potential of lordstown closing.

Originally Posted by JR_C

Starting next year, when bus service is restored/expanded, and I return to full time employment, I plan to do my best to buy and restore some of the houses that I'm talking about. I may not make a profit, but I have a personal need to make my neighborhood better because I see it everyday.

i am so glad that we as a people voted yes on issue 8. we have shot ourselves in the foot so many times before.