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Old 12-12-2020, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Ohio
807 posts, read 752,304 times
Reputation: 1762

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
"Fix" Ohio!??? Republicans? Really? ... The only 'fix' we can expect from Republicans is to line their pockets as well as those of their cronies. From Bob Taft to Larry Householder on back. The only constituency Republicans care about are un/undereducated rural types who respond to racial-scare buzz words like Pavlov's dogs, and who will keep electing them so ... they can line their pockets, and those of cronies, some more... wash, rinse, spin, repeat...
Interesting assertion on your part that Republicans only appeal to Under/un educated rural types who apparently are racist.

I like Republican policies, but have voted for Democrats in the past. Interestingly enough, I am educated... I have a M.Ed. and BA from Cleveland State University. I am not racist and have African-American family members. I am not rich or some Wall Street stock investor, rather work in Middle Management. Be careful with Stereotypes and things you hear on CNN.
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Old 12-12-2020, 01:31 PM
Status: "pre-imbolic." (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
23,072 posts, read 29,849,083 times
Reputation: 64322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicorn hunter View Post
"Originally"? Well, I was born in PA, grew up in Mass, lived the majority of my adult life in the Seattle area, and retired 2 years ago to Ohio.....looking for an affordable, 4-season climate area....my only mistake was moving out of the Cleveland vicinity.....it's beautiful here in Central Ohio, but way too conservative for someone who is a liberal democrat/environmentalist/feminist! Looking forward to moving back to civilization hopefully this spring!
I am originally from the NYC metro area, went to college in Mass. lived in PA for a couple of years. The mountains were beautiful, the people? Less than welcoming.

You sound a lot like me. We may eventually move to the Cleveland vicinity. I love the energy there! We are only a little under an hour away, but even under normal circumstances, we don't go to Cleveland as much as we'd like to visit.

Youngstown is up and coming. Even in the almost eight years that we have lived here, I see significant improvements in Y'town.

However, if we are going to make another move, we might as well go for Cleveland.
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Old 12-12-2020, 02:25 PM
 
11,481 posts, read 8,970,851 times
Reputation: 7059
Quote:
Originally Posted by KY_Transplant View Post
Everyone knows you are the biggest Cleveland homer on this forum and it shows in all your posts where you find "facts" to further your political agenda, rather an examination of Ohio's strengths and weaknesses.
You offer no facts, no substantiation, just your falsehoods to buttress your subjective and IMO ludicrous opinions. Were my facts in error? No. You want to dismiss all use of facts because they are poison to your deceits. Cleveland homer? Proudly guilty as charged. I wouldn't live here if I weren't a Greater Cleveland homer.

What infuriates me and many other Greater Clevelanders is the willingness of others to belittle our city and region based on the kind of indefensible comparisons that you offered in your earlier posts in this thread. You can't win a factual argument, so you dismiss the use of facts and attempt to denigrate me as a "homer" because I insist on a factual discussion, not some pointless exchange of insults and subjective lunacies as is too often acceptable in modern America.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KY_Transplant View Post
The topic at hand here is to not compare Indiana to Ohio, there is already another thread in the General Discussions forum.
Yet you repeatedly in this thread compared Ohio to Indiana (see post 46), Tennessee, Florida, and other states (see post 66). Just responding to your posts. Your IMO inane post 46 argued that Indiana was superior to a "stagnant" Ohio, an argument you seem totally unable to defend when the facts are presented.

Additionally, the leasing by Indiana Republicans of the Indiana Toll Road with the resulting substantial increases in tolls greatly disadvantages the northern Ohio economy. If you have the economic smarts that you claim, this should be an easy understand. What's shocking to me is that Ohio Democrats have never made a major political issue of the "Republican Toll Road" that has been erected through Ohio and Indiana in an effort to avoid raising taxes to fairly finance road development throughout both states. Raising the cost of shipping in northern Ohio severely disadvantages the manufacturing economy that once enriched northern Ohio. You ignore this reality, repeatedly falsely arguing that Republican policies have been good for Ohio. Do you honestly believe that the "Republican Toll Road" has been good for the northern Ohio economy, while the I-70 corridor remains toll-free???

The pollution of the Maumee River, including in Indiana, largely as a result of Republican opposition to effective environmental regulation, has caused economic suffering and job loss in northwestern Ohio, but also the impairment of Lake Erie as a recreational and water supply resource for northern Ohioans. What don't you understand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KY_Transplant View Post
The topic posted by the OP was why Joe Biden did not win Ohio when he did win other Great lakes States that went for Trump before. I then compared Ohio to Indiana as it's voting record is more closely aligning Indiana as a Midwestern Red State, and that can't be denied.

All these other topics you have presented deviate from the initial topic on why Ohio has leaned more red and why Biden lost Ohio. If you take off your rose colored glasses and step out of the Ivory tower into Real Ohio you would see why Ohioans have voted for Trump twice. JOBS. Jobs have been lost for decades. Mahoning county went to Trump this election...let that sink in. Mahoning county, the Mafia and Labor Union capital of Ohio went for a Republican as working class people felt abandoned by Democrats and their policies through the last few decades.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ed/6234140002/>>
I totally agree with you that the decline of the Ohio manufacturing economy has resulted in the despair that has made the empty promises of the Trump and Republican "Big Lie" propaganda politically effective.

I was raised in a community with several substantial manufacturers which no longer exist. My father worked in one of these factories most of his life until retirement. I understand well the Ohio blue collar angst, and I'm actually very angry about the policy decisions, largely national, that hollowed out the U.S. industrial economy.

First understand that it is not an issue of just the number of jobs, but also an issue of compensation. Perhaps some day when I have time (when I'm not responding to spurious arguments such as in this thread), perhaps I'll update post 2 in this thread, which documents how through 2017 Ohio's median real household income had fallen 30 percent adjusted for inflation since 2000. Actually, the decline was worse than the calculation shows, as it's very likely households were working significantly more hours in 2017 than in 2000, e.g., with perhaps more spouses working at two jobs each in 2017.

https://www.city-data.com/forum/ohio...rformance.html

Since 1991, Republican governors ruled Ohio for all but four years. Since 1993, Republicans have controlled the Ohio House of Representatives for all but two years. Since 1991, Republicans always have controlled the Ohio Senate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_governors_of_Ohio

https://www.city-data.com/forum/ohio...rformance.html

https://ballotpedia.org/Ohio_State_Senate

So is the massive decline in real median household income in Ohio in the 21st century, the Republican success story which you are touting????

I can't believe that you ask why COVID-19 is relevant to the question as to why Biden lost Ohio in 2020, but won in PA, MI, WI. COVID-19 was a major election issue throughout the U.S. The current COVID-19 surge was underway in Michigan and especially in Wisconsin well before Election Day.

https://covidtracking.com/data/state/wisconsin

https://covidtracking.com/data/state/wisconsin

In Ohio, with early voting taking place in October, the recent surge exploded after Election Day.

https://covidtracking.com/data/state/ohio

Michigan and Wisconsin voters likely were more revolted by Trump COVID-19 policies than Ohio's voters.

Yet there are three important differences between the three Great Lakes states that flipped in 2020 and Ohio, which did not flip to Biden.

1) Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania all had Democratic governors. Ohio did not. The governors in these states were arguing for and explaining the need for mask wearing and social distancing, while DeWine continued to praise Trump, did not have a universal mask mandate and had weak social distancing rules. These Democratic governors attacked Trump/Republican policies, and in Wisconsin and Michigan, the advancing surge buttressed their attacks on Trump.

Trump and the Republicans blamed Democratic mask and social distancing policies for the COVID-19 economic destruction. Trump claimed repeatedly that he deserved a "A+" for his management of the epidemic. For anyone looking at the epidemic policy responses in Australia, New Zealand, and in Asian nations, it is obvious that Trump's claim was the biggest lie of his Presidency. Yet neither the Democrats in Ohio nor the Ohio media effectively rebutted Trump's false COVID-19 claims.

As noted in April in post 19 in this thread, South Korea nipped the epidemic in the bud before it got underway using policies easily replicated in the U.S. and WITHOUT EVER SHUTTING DOWN ITS ECONOMY.

https://www.city-data.com/forum/ohio...andemic-2.html

While the epidemic has become crippling in the U.S., both medically and economically, in the half year since this post, the South Koreans implemented policies that likely would have been echoed in a Democratic administration in the U.S. South Korea still hasn't shut down its economy and cumulative COVID-19 deaths total less than 600.

<<In a commentary, researchers demonstrate the stark differences in public health strategies from two democratic republics: South Korea and the United States, which have led to alarming differences in cases and deaths from COVID-19. After adjusting for the 6.5 fold differences in populations, the U.S. has suffered 47 times more cases and 79 times more deaths than South Korea.>>

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...820102431.htm#

Personally, I believe that the Biden campaign and the Democrats were inept in not explaining in greater detail the failures of the Trump/Republican epidemic response. Once the Biden administration assumes control of the federal government, I fully expect a white paper to accomplish what the Biden campaign failed to make clear to the American people during the election.

2) Not only did PA, MI, and WI have Democratic governors and their political organizations to support the Biden campaign, the Biden campaign and SuperPacs allocated much, much greater resources to these states. This was reflected in the superior Biden performance in suburban areas; Hillary Clinton didn't even visit Wisconsin during the 2016 campaign. Interestingly, African-American turnout was weak in many areas (and in Cleveland). In Ohio, Republicans effectively suppressed the minority vote by restricting early voting and ballot drop-off locations.

https://www.statesman.com/story/news...2020/43010243/

<<The coronavirus pandemic, an economic crash, years of poverty and population decline all weighed down Cleveland’s turnout, Democratic activists and officeholders said last week. And local Democrats bore that burden, they said, without meaningful on-the-ground help from the Biden campaign.>>

https://www.ideastream.org/news/afte...igh-whats-next

Unlike Clinton, Biden clearly allocated his campaign resources well, winning the three Great Lakes battleground states that Clinton in 2016 had lost by narrow margins, compared to the large margin with which she lost Ohio in 2016.

You imply that Trump positively impacted Ohio employment. Like Trump, Republicans and Trump supporters, you likely argue that Trump isn't responsible for the economic collapse caused by the COVID-19 epidemic, instead blaming the Chinese and efforts by Democratic governors to enforce effective public health measures, despite the lack of a national plan and the provision of adequate resources by Congress and the Trump administration.

If blame for the disastrous COVID-19 response is properly placed on Trump and his Republican enablers, Trump IS responsible for the fact that Ohio employment statistics are worse than when he assumed office.

https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LASS...de_graphs=true

The destruction of businesses and wealth results from the Trump administration's failure to implement public health policies as were used so successfully in South Korea, Australia, etc.

3) It's also likely Biden's Scranton, PA, roots helped him in PA. Biden's Catholic faith likely boosted his performance in all three states as well, and was likely emphasized during his much greater number of visitations to the flipped three states compared to Biden's more limited Ohio visitations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KY_Transplant View Post
My comments are not ignorant, they are just not your opinions. You have a different political ideology than I, clearly. I have provided facts on what Ohio Republicans have done to help move the State forward and, surprise, no response from anyone. I even asserted that both Political parties are bad (they are), but just as you attach to the Democratic Party, I attach to the Republican Party, the lesser of two evils in my opinion and how their style of government affects my daily life.
You claimed that Cleveland was a "cesspool." You claimed that Ohio's economy was stagnant compared to Indiana. You claimed that Indiana and Tennessee are superior states to Ohio. You failed to understand how Indiana's pollution of the Maumee River and the creation of the "Republican Toll Road" were relevant, even though both actions negatively impact Ohio job creation. Amazingly, you didn't understand what the COVID-19 epidemic had to do with the 2020 elections.

"Ignorant" is an understatement IMO.

I will respond later to your claims about Republican performance in Ohio. I've ignored your ridiculousness until this morning, and unfortunately I've wasted much time that would have been better spent using this last nice day for chores before the onslaught of winter.

However, from a cursory reading, your other claims are wrong or at least very misleading. E.g., if not for Gov. John Kasich doing an end-around the Ohio legislature, Ohio Republicans including then Attorney General Mike DeWine would have gutted Medicaid expansion in Ohio which would have been disastrously negative for the Ohio anti-opioid efforts AND the Ohio economy. U.S. Congressional Republicans and Trump would have gutted the Affordable Care Act AND its Medicaid expansion in Ohio except for the famous "Nay" vote of John McCain. DeWine has proposed cutting Medicaid funding in Ohio in response to the COVID-19 budget impairments. Absent Medicaid expansion, the rural hospital system in Ohio would have collapsed just as it did in TN. FACTS.

Also, as noted earlier in this post, the Republicans have controlled Ohio during its last several decades of manufacturing economy decline, and during the disastrous response to the COVID-19 epidemic. How do you fail to grasp this reality???

BTW, I'm not attached to the Democratic Party. I object to many Democratic Party policies, but the alternatives offered by the Republicans, especially the Trump Republicans, are unconscionable.

Last edited by WRnative; 12-12-2020 at 03:40 PM..
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Old 12-12-2020, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Ohio
807 posts, read 752,304 times
Reputation: 1762
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
You offer no facts, no substantiation, just your falsehoods to buttress your subjective and IMO ludicrous opinions. Were my facts in error? No. You want to dismiss all use of facts because they are poison to your deceits. Cleveland homer? Proudly guilty as charged. I wouldn't live here if I weren't a Greater Cleveland homer.
One can be proud of where they live, but not to the detriment of facts. Additionally, much of what you like about Cleveland is subjective, just as it is for others who live in other Cities. I did not dismiss your facts, I stated that you post a lot of links that are not relevant to the discussion and use a lot of words in an effort to seem like you know what you're talking about.

Quote:
What infuriates me and many other Greater Clevelanders is the willingness of others to belittle our city and region based on the kind of indefensible comparisons that you offered in your earlier posts in this thread. You can't win a factual argument, so you dismiss the use of facts and attempt to denigrate me as a "homer" because I insist on a factual discussion, not some pointless exchange of insults and subjective lunacies as is too often acceptable in modern America.
Cleveland has the reputation it does for a reason. You still have not addressed the decades of Democratic leadership in Cleveland that has failed it's citizens. Cleveland is a cesspool of corruption, crime, poverty and other metrics. These are reasons people "belittle" Cleveland and other cities like it such as Memphis, St. Louis and Baltimore.

Quote:
Yet you repeatedly in this thread compared Ohio to Indiana (see post 46), Tennessee, Florida, and other states (see post 66). Just responding to your posts. Your IMO inane post 46 argued that Indiana was superior to a "stagnant" Ohio, an argument you seem totally unable to defend when the facts are presented.
I did include Indiana because Ohio's voting patterns are staring to resemble our neighbor to the West and that places Ohio in a group with other Conservative and Red leaning Midwestern States such as Indiana, Kansas and Missouri. Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa are leaning Blue or are reliably Blue...Ohio is the outlier for a reason. Ohio is stagnant, largely due to it's more industrial economy that was gutted, not by Republicans but by Bill Clintons North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA). That agreement was the beginning of the end for America's industrial economy. Labor Unions also had a share in the later demise of manufacturing in the United States.
https://www.industryweek.com/talent/...-the-rust-belt
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/22/b...s/22nafta.html


Quote:
Additionally, the leasing by Indiana Republicans of the Indiana Toll Road with the resulting substantial increases in tolls greatly disadvantages the northern Ohio economy. If you have the economic smarts that you claim, this should be an easy understand. What's shocking to me is that Ohio Democrats have never made a major political issue of the "Republican Toll Road" that has been erected through Ohio and Indiana in an effort to avoid raising taxes to fairly finance road development throughout both states. Raising the cost of shipping in northern Ohio severely disadvantages the manufacturing economy that once enriched northern Ohio. You ignore this reality, repeatedly falsely arguing that Republican policies have been good for Ohio. Do you honestly believe that the "Republican Toll Road" has been good for the northern Ohio economy, while the I-70 corridor remains toll-free???
I don't believe any Toll Roads are beneficial for an economy or for it's citizens. I am firmly against toll roads, which are rare to find in the South outside Texas, Florida and Atlanta, GA. Citizens should not be forced to pay to use roads, as the Government should provide this infrastructure to it's citizens in funds created by taxes we all already pay. If the Republicans are the biggest proponent of this Toll Road, then I would agree with you that I am against it. As I said earlier, I am not 100% in favor of everything Republicans do or stand for, but out of the two major Political parties, I largely support Republican policies over Democratic ones. But in this case, I do not support a toll road based upon the evidence.

Quote:
The pollution of the Maumee River, including in Indiana, largely as a result of Republican opposition to effective environmental regulation, has caused economic suffering and job loss in northwestern Ohio, but also the impairment of Lake Erie as a recreational and water supply resource for northern Ohioans. What don't you understand?
I don't understand how this directly ties into the OP's topic of why Biden lost Ohio. If this is just another topic to bash Ohio Republicans, then sure, I guess I see your point.

Quote:
I totally agree with you that the decline of the Ohio manufacturing economy has resulted in the despair that has made the empty promises of the Trump and Republican "Big Lie" propaganda politically effective.

I was raised in a community with several substantial manufacturers which no longer exist. My father worked in one of these factories most of his life until retirement. I understand well the Ohio blue collar angst, and I'm actually very angry about the policy decisions, largely national, that hollowed out the U.S. industrial economy.
Being "heard" is an important part of being Human, even on a Macro level of national and state politics. People in towns like Ashtabula, Youngstown, Dayton, Toledo, Portsmouth have had their livelihoods and families destroyed by a lack of meaningful work, an Opioid Addiction crisis and Democratic Politician who used to stand with these people (Lyndon Johnson, Bobby Kennedy) no longer care. Enter Trump. He captured their desire for a better future of better jobs, less taxes and prosperity, whether he provided that or not is up for debate, but that is a meaningful reason why Ohio went to Trump in 2020 and 2016 and will likely be a solid red state going forward..


Quote:
While the epidemic has become crippling in the U.S., both medically and economically, in the half year since this post, the South Koreans implemented policies that likely would have been echoed in a Democratic administration in the U.S. South Korea still hasn't shut down its economy and cumulative COVID-19 deaths total less than 600.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/10/w...ine-surge.html

South Korea and Japan are seeing a resurgence of Covid cases...their solution does not appear to have worked, which does not surprise me because Covid is too contagious to be contained and will work it's way through the population until a vaccine is widely distributed or we reach herd immunity (this is a whole other discussion).


Quote:
You imply that Trump positively impacted Ohio employment. Like Trump, Republicans and Trump supporters, you likely argue that Trump isn't responsible for the economic collapse caused by the COVID-19 epidemic, instead blaming the Chinese and efforts by Democratic governors to enforce effective public health measures, despite the lack of a national plan and the provision of adequate resources by Congress and the Trump administration.
I did not imply that Trump positively impacted Ohio employment. I also did not argue that Trump is not responsible for the economic collapse caused by Covid, but if you would like me to argue that, I certainly can.


Quote:
You claimed that Cleveland was a "cesspool." You claimed that Ohio's economy was stagnant compared to Indiana. You claimed that Indiana and Tennessee are superior states to Ohio. You failed to understand how Indiana's pollution of the Maumee River and the creation of the "Republican Toll Road" were relevant, even though both actions negatively impact Ohio job creation. Amazingly, you didn't understand what the COVID-19 epidemic had to do with the 2020 elections.

"Ignorant" is an understatement IMO.
It's easy for you to name call people that don't agree with you. But I'll continue...Cleveland is a cesspool, just my opinion, but I have provided the reasons why I think it is and I know MANY people who view it the same. It is what it is. Cleveland has a poor reputation for a reason, as I stated earlier. I am not backing down from that Claim. Cleveland at one time was an economic powerhouse and a fantastic city. I hear stories of Cleveland's golden years and how great and prosperous it was, those days are gone.

Indiana, Tennessee, Florida, Georgia, Texas, Pennsylvania, are all better off than Ohio.

Quote:
I will respond later to your claims about Republican performance in Ohio. I've ignored your ridiculousness until this morning, and unfortunately I've wasted much time that would have been better spent using this last nice day for chores before the onslaught of winter.
You call me out for ignoring your claims (I didn't) and then you proceed to ignore the links I presented...interesting.

Quote:
However, from a cursory reading, your other claims are wrong or at least very misleading. E.g., if not for Gov. John Kasich doing an end-around the Ohio legislature, Ohio Republicans including Mike DeWine would have gutted Medicaid expansion in Ohio which would have been disastrously negative for the Ohio anti-opioid efforts AND the Ohio economy. U.S. Congressional Republicans and Trump would have gutted the Affordable Care Act AND its Medicaid expansion in Ohio except for the famous "Nay" vote of John McCain. DeWine has proposed cutting Medicaid funding in Ohio in response to the COVID-19 budget impairments. Absent Medicaid expansion, the rural hospital system in Ohio would have collapsed just as it did in TN. FACTS.
The rural Hospitals in TN collapsed because they lacked patients and were largely treating the uninsured! The hospitals could not continue operating at a loss and so they closed.
https://www.tennessean.com/story/new...th/3245179002/
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Old 12-12-2020, 05:22 PM
 
Location: Lake Huron Shores
2,228 posts, read 1,131,752 times
Reputation: 1758
Because the rust belt cities are dying and so they constitute lower percentage of the votes. When most Ohio state grads with STEM degrees want to work in Boston, Seattle, or San Francisco, then You expect to see Ohio lean more red.
Texas will flip blue before Ohio does, thanks to the high surge in Asian immigrate who overwhelmingly vote blue and live in suburban swing districts.
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Old 12-12-2020, 10:22 PM
 
Location: moved
12,650 posts, read 8,276,874 times
Reputation: 21487
Quote:
Originally Posted by KY_Transplant View Post
I did include Indiana because Ohio's voting patterns are staring to resemble our neighbor to the West and that places Ohio in a group with other Conservative and Red leaning Midwestern States such as Indiana, Kansas and Missouri. Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa are leaning Blue or are reliably Blue...Ohio is the outlier for a reason. Ohio is stagnant, largely due to it's more industrial economy that was gutted, not by Republicans but by Bill Clintons North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).
Ohio isn't at all an outlier. None of the above-enumerated states is doing particularly better. All have the same problems of de-industrialization and consolidation of agriculture, and thus loss of the twin pillars of Midwestern prosperity. All have harsh climate, and no particularly interesting topography or natural resources (mountains, ocean coast, ...). All are to varying degrees socially-conservative, in which they resemble the South... except that the South has nicer climate, lower taxes and more business-friendly laws/regulations.

So... we have a region of the country that just isn't a very compelling place to live anymore... at least not for affluent and enterprising people, who might see superior opportunities elsewhere. The result is stagnation, retrenchment and decline.

Ohio is therefore neither to be faulted, nor to be praised. It is pretty typical. And it is very much like Indiana or Iowa. It differs from Michigan, Illinois and Minnesota, in that the latter have a Detroit, Chicago and Minneapolis, respectively: that is, a large, marquee city that anchors industry, commerce and cultural-life... that votes overwhelmingly Democratic. Decades ago, Cleveland would vie with members of this set. But today Cleveland is just too small, to serve in Ohio the role that Chicago serves in Illinois, or that Minneapolis serves in Minnesota. It is more like Indianapolis' role in Indiana, or Des Moines' role in Iowa.... all red-states.
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Old 12-13-2020, 07:46 AM
 
11,481 posts, read 8,970,851 times
Reputation: 7059
Quote:
Originally Posted by KY_Transplant View Post
One can be proud of where they live, but not to the detriment of facts. Additionally, much of what you like about Cleveland is subjective, just as it is for others who live in other Cities. I did not dismiss your facts, I stated that you post a lot of links that are not relevant to the discussion and use a lot of words in an effort to seem like you know what you're talking about.
Not surprisingly, as with many Trump supporters, you confuse your subjective opinions with reality, and deny the existence of objective reality. In post 74, I documented my statements. You can't refute them, except by essentially saying you don't care and arguing in Trumpian fashion that facts are subjective.

You apparently consider facts about Cleveland's great cultural and civic amenities and booming residential construction as irrelevant to your repeated, libelous statement that Cleveland is a "cesspool."

Please explain how this is a cesspool??? Are you seriously arguing that developers spend hundreds of millions on residential construction in a cesspool?

https://www.freshwatercleveland.com/...od100320.aspx?

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/...-in-march-2021

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/...y-see.html?m=1

https://www.cleveland.com/realestate...ghborhood.html

And an S&P 500 corporation renews its commitment to a "cesspool" by beginning the construction of a massive new skyscraper headquarters in the heart of downtown Cleveland?

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/...erwin.html?m=1

Again, your posts display blatant, shameless ignorance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KY_Transplant View Post
Cleveland has the reputation it does for a reason. You still have not addressed the decades of Democratic leadership in Cleveland that has failed it's citizens. Cleveland is a cesspool of corruption, crime, poverty and other metrics. These are reasons people "belittle" Cleveland and other cities like it such as Memphis, St. Louis and Baltimore.
In post 74, I documented the egregious corruption perpetrated on Ohioans by Republicans. Any corruption in Cleveland or Cuyahoga County of which I'm aware pales against those of the Ohio Republicans. E.g., JobsOhio siphons off $300 million annually of state revenues into a secretive slush fund controlled by Republicans. That doesn't bother you? That level of corruption, Coingate, etc., and you don't find the Ohio Republican Party a "cesspool of corruption." Please explain. See post 55.

https://www.city-data.com/forum/ohio...l#post59847808

Please list all of the corruption in Cleveland or Cuyahoga County of which you apparently have knowledge. Collectively, any that I'm aware of pales against that of Ohio Republicans.

Does Cleveland have some severe social issues? Yes, but these can largely be blamed on poor national policies supported by Republicans have hollowed out the American economy, and on Ohio Republicans that have siphoned off urban wealth to support rural areas, often wealthy townships, and to provide massive tax breaks to the wealthy, all detailed in earlier posts.

And as explained in post 74, and carefully documented, Cleveland proper is a relatively small part of Greater Cleveland and even of Cuyahoga County. You ignore this reality, as well as the fact that Cleveland has some of the best amenities in the U.S., especially cultural and pro sports, and a great location on Lake Erie.

Calling Cleveland a "cesspool" is blatantly offensive and displays deliberate troll-like ignorance. Lumping Cleveland with other cities with a significant minority population displays merely your Trumpian bias.

You claim Cleveland has a bad reputation, yet it was praised after the Republican National Convention. It has been regularly recommended as a national, and even international, tourist destination.

https://www.city-data.com/forum/clev...cleveland.html

Last edited by WRnative; 12-13-2020 at 08:01 AM..
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Old 12-13-2020, 10:30 AM
 
Location: Ohio
807 posts, read 752,304 times
Reputation: 1762
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
Not surprisingly, as with many Trump supporters, you confuse your subjective opinions with reality, and deny the existence of objective reality. In post 74, I documented my statements. You can't refute them, except by essentially saying you don't care and arguing in Trumpian fashion that facts are subjective.
I have not once stated my support for Trump. You can keep calling me a Trumpian, but not once I have stated I support Trump or voted for Trump.

Quote:
You apparently consider facts about Cleveland's great cultural and civic amenities and booming residential construction as irrelevant to your repeated, libelous statement that Cleveland is a "cesspool."
I already stated that is my opinion and opinion of many others but also provided some facts to support my opinion, just as you have done for your opinion.
Quote:
Please explain how this is a cesspool??? Are you seriously arguing that developers spend hundreds of millions on residential construction in a cesspool?
Cleveand is a mid-sized city, so of course it will have development and there has been some good residential and business development in Cleveland, but not anywhere close to the scale of other cities. The below link details 2020's best cities for investment...one Ohio city made the list and it was not Cleveland.

https://www.noradarealestate.com/blo...n-real-estate/
Cleveland was labeled as the 5th fastest shrinking city for 2020 in one study.
https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/lo...4-38cb208599e2


Quote:
And an S&P 500 corporation renews its commitment to a "cesspool" by beginning the construction of a massive new skyscraper headquarters in the heart of downtown Cleveland?

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/...erwin.html?m=1

Again, your posts display blatant, shameless ignorance.
Sherwin Williams has been in Cleveland forever, they are not a new company. My point is Cleveland is stagnant and not growing. Cleveland metropolitan STILL is losing population, while many other cities are gaining population or holding steady.
https://www.census.gov/data/tables/2...migration.html



Quote:
Please list all of the corruption in Cleveland or Cuyahoga County of which you apparently have knowledge. Collectively, any that I'm aware of pales against that of Ohio Republicans.
Jimmy Dimora ring a bell?
https://www.cleveland.com/open/2018/...orruption.html

Mayor Michael White, who's office was investigated for bribery.
https://clevelandurbannews.com/index...-in-2005-.html

Former Mayor Dennis Kucinich...Municipal Light ring a bell?



Quote:
Does Cleveland have some severe social issues? Yes, but these can largely be blamed on poor national policies supported by Republicans have hollowed out the American economy, and on Ohio Republicans that have siphoned off urban wealth to support rural areas, often wealthy townships, and to provide massive tax breaks to the wealthy, all detailed in earlier posts.
Where have the Ohio Republicans siphoned off urban wealth to support wealthy townships? And is it wrong for rural areas lacking jobs and infrastructure to have investment from the State...isn't that what Democrats propose?


Quote:
And as explained in post 74, and carefully documented, Cleveland proper is a relatively small part of Greater Cleveland and even of Cuyahoga County. You ignore this reality, as well as the fact that Cleveland has some of the best amenities in the U.S., especially cultural and pro sports, and a great location on Lake Erie.

Calling Cleveland a "cesspool" is blatantly offensive and displays deliberate troll-like ignorance. Lumping Cleveland with other cities with a significant minority population displays merely your Trumpian bias.
The legacy amenities of Cleveland are leftover from its legacy days, and that is a good thing going for Cleveland, but other cities have these similar amenities as well. Other cities have Professional Sports, Museums, Cultural Institutions and Musical venues, Cleveland is not special in that regard. Additionally, those amenities are not reasons, at least not the most important reasons, many people re-locate to a new place.

Again, not sure where I have any "Trumpian" bias in my posts.
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Old 12-13-2020, 10:35 AM
 
Location: on the shores of Lake Erie
1,232 posts, read 686,988 times
Reputation: 2951
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
I am originally from the NYC metro area, went to college in Mass. lived in PA for a couple of years. The mountains were beautiful, the people? Less than welcoming.

You sound a lot like me. We may eventually move to the Cleveland vicinity. I love the energy there! We are only a little under an hour away, but even under normal circumstances, we don't go to Cleveland as much as we'd like to visit.

Youngstown is up and coming. Even in the almost eight years that we have lived here, I see significant improvements in Y'town.

However, if we are going to make another move, we might as well go for Cleveland.
We do sound like twins! My dad was born in Youngstown! Yes, I thought an hour drive to Cleveland would be very doable....turns out it's just too far, especially at night. Getting old sucks! LOL! Really looking forward to being able to take public transportation or drive 15 minutes to games/events/concerts. The people, also very different....made friends quickly and easily up in Shaker.....here, people are nice enough, but views are so drastically different, I can't see making lasting friendships. Hope we both make it back!
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Old 12-13-2020, 01:18 PM
 
11,481 posts, read 8,970,851 times
Reputation: 7059
From near the end of your post 84:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KY_Transplant View Post

Indiana, Tennessee, Florida, Georgia, Texas, Pennsylvania, are all better off than Ohio.
I know that most of your factual assertions are inaccurate, as, obviously unlike you, I have long followed Ohio politics and have an economics and taxation professional background. However, as you just make things up and post them as facts, I will tackle your falsehoods one by one, but I intend to document just how sloppy and disingenuous your thinking is, as reflected in your posts. This process may take me weeks or months, but I will be relentless in dealing with your baloney.

As the above quoted material is among the most offensive and inaccurate of your many charges, I wanted to deal with it more immediately.

1) Earlier in this thread, you compared Ohio to adjacent states Indiana and Kentucky, and toTennessee. You've touted specifically Indiana as Republican run state superior to Ohio. Gallup's well-being surveys provides one of the more definitive measures of state quality of life rankings. You can read about it in the following links, but suffice it to say that in 2018 when the survey apparently was last conducted, Ohio ranked 38, Indiana ranked 41, Tennessee ranked 46, and Kentucky ranked 48.

https://www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/a...llup-poll.html

https://news.gallup.com/poll/247034/...-7th-time.aspx

You can check out all states at the above links, but note that considering the states with populations over 5 million, Democratic states such as Colorado, Washington, California, and Massachusetts were among the top 20 rankings, all higher than the four other states that you somehow decided should be compared with Ohio.

Ohio's relatively low rankings in quality of life arguably could be attributed to the fact its largely been run by Republicans for three decades. E.g., Republican policy disasters such as JobsOhio that diverts $300 million annually from education, job training, etc., to secret outright grants to corporations does not bode well for Ohio prosperity.

It is interesting, and not surprising to me, that less densely populated states rank more highly. Ohio's relative lack of over-crowding, especially in Greater Cleveland despite being a major urban area, greatly appeals to me.

Now, consider real per capita personal income for 2018 and updated in 2020 for Ohio ($51,429), Indiana ($48,997), Tennessee ($48,441) and Kentucky ($44,013). Only the Kentucky number is a 2020 observation, and it's very significantly increased from 2018 and 2019.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OHRPIPC

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/INRPIPC

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/KYOI96

As I've said repeatedly, your subjective opinions are NOT FACTS.

Last edited by WRnative; 12-13-2020 at 01:39 PM..
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