Dayton+Cincinnati=Good? (Columbus, Cleveland, Akron: linear, commuting, metro area)

[BelieveInCleve]

If Cleveland was ever pulled off life support, it was well over 30 years ago. Thats nothing new. The point is that there is less and less people moving out and at a lower percentage, thats improvement compared to where we are at. We will start gaining, but its gradual and it takes time.

Atlanta is actually not that much larger than Cleveland really. The numbers may say that, but you have to understand that Atlantas metro covers over 4 times as much land area as Clevelands, and unfairly. Atlantas metro area actually covers about as much land as the entire NE Ohio region. And there in the same situation with that. If Clevelands was that large it would include 4.6 million-5.2 million people, very similar to Atlanta. Those outer areas in NE Ohio are as dependent on Cleveland here as the ones in the outer regions of the Atlanta metro. Some areas in the Atlanta metro are nearly that far from downtown. Either Clevelands should be much larger, or Atlantas should be much smaller if you want to compare them fairly. The only reason ours isnt larger is because theres other large urban areas up here, but its pretty much all Cleveland.

Look at this map of the metro sizes: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ical_Areas.png

BTW, Cincinnatis metro covers twice as much land as Clevelands. Make no mistake, Clevelands metro, if compared fairly, would have many more people than Cincinnatis or nearly as many as Atlantas. Go look at what I just said or look it up for yourself. This is not some bias statement that Im making just because Im from Cleveland, its the truth.

[WeSoHood]

That picture above just shows how much smaller our metro is than Cincys. If Northeast Ohio was one metro area (which it should be) or the same size as Cincy, of course Cleveland would have a much larger population - it's more densely populated area. I don't really know many of the Cincy natives arguments in here. Theres nothing to dispute really.

Personally, the way they determine a define metro area is pretty stupid and is pretty obvious from the views of that picture.

[WeSoHood]

Originally Posted by Hey_Hey

I'm originally from Kentucky (living now in Toledo), and I just got back from a weekend in Cleveland. That place is depressing (and remember I live in Toledo!). Not quite as bad as my experience with Detroit or Buffalo, but pretty close. Driving around metro Cincy I get the feeling that it is growing......driving around metro Cleveland I get the feeling that someone pulled life support and the city has started its decline toward death. MSA numbers seem to back this up.

Talking about city populations is really pointless. The city of Cleveland and the city of Atlanta are pretty close in population, but Metro Atlanta has over twice as many people. The city of Toledo and the city of Cincy have roughly the same population, but Cincy is clearly a larger metro area.

And what is this discussion about NE Ohio having 4.5 million people? There are people that live in NE Ohio and live 1.5 hours away from Cleveland. They clearly aren't in Cleveland's metro area. If Cleveland get to county "NE Ohio" in its population then Cincy should get to count all of Southern Ohio and Norhern Kentucky.

Well for the last thing you stated - Cincy has a metro area MUCH larger than Clevelands.. so I don't get your argument? Can you clarify? Atleast look up facts before you ramble stuff off. Cincy has a much larger area (metro) than Cleveland - yet somehow if Clevelands metro area is bigger it is someone unfair?? And 1.5 hours from Cleveland isn't really NE Ohio... that's getting close to Columbus. Heck, Canton is 45 minutes from Cleveland. Akron is 25 minutes, and Youngstown is 45 minutes... the rest is useless as they don't represent large populations of people. Kind of funny you mention Atlanta - when their MSA makes up almost half of Georgia.. yet once again if we bring up NE Ohio being one MSA, it's too large.. the hypocrisy is sickening. And last time I checked Northern Kentucky IS included in Cincys MSA..

I just honestly don't understand the arguments people post on here with no logic or thought out discussion. It's just rambling of false facts and biasm. And btw - where did you go in Cleveland? Most likely you saw a depressed city because you visited depressed areas. Go to Rocky River, Westlake, Avon Lake, Avon, Medina (ugh I do hate Medina though myself), Strongsville, Chagrin Falls, Independent, Brecksville, Shaker Hts, Beachwood, Seven Hills, Pepper Pike, etc and tell me it's "depressing"... I mean you are from Toledo - one city I can't even bare because it's so depressing and boring.

This forum is filled with people who have some agenda against Cleveland.. it's almost laughable. It reminds me of the whole US hating OSU except Ohioans. Same thing in Ohio with Cleveland.

Christ, at least I know the "brain drain" from Cleveland surely didn't relocate to Toledo

[unusualfire]

Clearly people don't know what core base counties are. Atlanta clearly has many more core based counties than Cleveland, which people goto for jobs. Using your logic you think Cleveland is bigger population wise than Seattle too?? I mean have you even been to these places???

[1watertiger]

wesohood, you are absolutly correct.... ok,, tell me why metro cinci gets 15 counties counted when the region is less dense and dayton is almost as far away as canton ? IT TAKES ALL OF THOSE 15 COUNTIES TO BARELY SURPASS CLEVELANDS 5 counties counted ! i have traveled ALOT ,and "greater cleveland " or "N.E. Ohio" or what-ever you call it is one of largest populated regions still in this country.and thats with the countinued population loss. (in my opinion 13 counties represent n.e.ohio/greater cleveland.). just because cleveland has lost hundreds of thousands of people doesnt mean the urban development stopped or left town too, it continues to sprawl just slower than the current boom towns. UNUSUALFIRE, yes urban metro cleveland is larger than urban metro seatle... but your skyline is much better ! ps- im not talking population, im talking "urban/developed" footprint.

[Cincy-Rise]

I don't know why you guys don't understand how metros are formed? I've explained it myself and I've even posted a link on how the census comes up with metros. It's not too hard for the average Joe to understand this.


A metro is formed because of communiting patterns -an interaction of people from one county to the other.

If 30% of SE Indiana in commuting to Cincy everyday, its county will be included in its metro. It has NOTHING to do with size. If 15 counties are included in Cincy's MSA then, that is representative of Cincy's population.

If a large percentage of Canton's population is commuting to Cleveland, then it would be included in Cleveland's MSA. If it isn't, then it isn't. Proximity will on play so much into whether it will be included or not.


Cle440, you're making it sound like a bright light is at the end of the tunnel. Have you seen this highlight summery from the US Census' website... not the Plain Dealer, not the Columbus Dispatch, but the US Census:

Cleveland suffered the largest numerical decline in population from 2006 to 2007, followed by Columbus, Ga.; Baton Rouge; Philadelphia; and Baltimore.

US Census Press Releases

Yes, it was a highlight, not a summery of every city.


__________________________________________________ ____________________________

Secondly, the "well, Cincinnati covers 15 counties" is completely ignorant. This reminds me of the growth argument that Cle440 made about Cincy passing up Cleveland in population. In other words it wasn't well thought out, or we are all idiots here.



EX: (I'll make this as simple to understand as possible, but if you have any questions, PM me)
Person (A) can have 10 counties in their MSA and Person (B) can have 5, but there is a possibility of Person (B)'s 5 counties covering more area than Person (A)'s ... but you might ask yourself, but how is that, Cincy-Rise ... it's very simple! Each of those 10 counties are smaller, significantly in comparison to Person (B)'s 5 counties ... and we see that here.

Total area for:

Cincinnati's 15 counties: 4,465 sq. mi.
Cleveland's 5 counties: 3,979 sq. mi.


What's even more interesting, is that the majority of Cincinnati's MSA is made up of satellite cities no more than ~25 miles away from the middle of DT Cincy. Folks, go back and read that again.


Remember, an MSA is represented by commuting patterns, not proximity.

[1watertiger]

cinci-rise, you are correct in the formula used. very subjective imo. take above unusualfires comment about seatle metro: tacoma is counted 60 mils away in the commuting patterns then ? come-on. thats farther than dayton to cinci or youngstown/canton to cleveland. by allowing "subjective" (sometimes absurd) commute patterns such as a columbus-marion,metro atlanta,balt-washington or seatle/tacoma to dictate a cities metro size, arent cities like cleveland and cinci getting short-changed on federal dollars ? its kinda like the wall st. bailout to me,, the government picks the winners and loooosers.

[hillside]

^^excellent summary cincy-rise.

the bottom line is, dayton is strategically placed to benefit from cincinnati, as well as indianapolis, columbus, and the detroit connection. commuting from dayton to cincinnati is very common. moving to dayton to take a job in cincinnati is commonplace as well. the connection was always there; it's just now getting ratified by the u.s. census.

youngstown is an hour and a half from dt cleveland. columbus is an hour and a half from dt cincinnati. cleveland has been at the head of the state for a while now. sometimes things change.

[1watertiger]

hillside, youngstown is only about 8miles further from cleveland than dayton is to cinci, and takes about 45 minutes. youngstown is not counted.

[hillside]

Originally Posted by 1watertiger

hillside, youngstown is only about 8miles further from cleveland than dayton is to cinci, and takes about 45 minutes. youngstown is not counted.

45 from downtown? ok...