Bumper sticker (buying, place, water)

[KenD]

Originally Posted by 1watertiger

kend, when i said this country is run by the "elite" i wasnt talking about doctors,etc... they are not "elite". i said trillionaires. fact: : about 99% of americas wealth is owned by 1% of the population. that leaves 99% of the population with the 1% of the wealth.

I am not only not disputing what you're saying but will be glad to supply you with the documentation you need.



Mind you, that is wealth, not income...

Just to "spark" the discussion a little more, take a look at this accompanying graph.



That is a graphic representation of what a Flat Tax would look like.

Originally Posted by 1watertiger

(i am looking for refferences from a study we did in college)... ..

I have plenty more documentation, if you feel you need it.

Originally Posted by 1watertiger

second, the feds are not using our federal tax dollars the way law dictates. its paying the interest on the loans from the federal reserve. we already are taxed for the services we receive/expect in other ways. ie-gas tax at the pump partly pays road/bridges. your property tax pays for your schools,etc... if you payed no federal income tax on wages/labor before the 16th ammendment you dont have to pay them now. this has been held up to this day by supreme courts. its the judges in the lower courts that are putting people in jail.( by the way the lower courts by law must be in compliance with the supreme courts) so why is the irs trying to enforce its "code" ? i challenge you to find the law..gains/profits are a different story and is ,taxable......the economy:

The short answer (and I am perfectly willing to continue this discussion but I am not sure this is the appropriate venue) is that this is the way the system works. Yes, I'm sure we can both find a way to scream that there are things wrong with the system (and there are) but our country's daily functions are so intertwined that it would be impossible to separate them out.

Originally Posted by 1watertiger

i for one am against bailouts, businesses thrive or fail i see the banks as no different, why do they get our tax dollars when the deli down the street doesnt?

Did you watch the video I linked to above? Do you understand the significance of what happened last September?

I'm not happy about this bailout but I understand why it was necessary.

Originally Posted by 1watertiger

and lastly what about the federal reserve? why do we allow a private entity (the trillionaire/elite i am referring to)control our money and add interest on every dollar printed and then loaned to our government ? this is simple economics, we will grow the federal debt everytime our gov. borrows more money...did you know our congress has the power to print and control its own currancy with no interest on itself? i wonder who prohibits this discussion?

I'm going to leave this one alone.

[1watertiger]

kend, thankx for the graph. i did watch the video, but i still disagree with giving banks(mismanaged/theft/greed) OUR money..i say let the cards fall where they may.. isnt that the true american way... why not divide up the billions among us ?? its our money anyway. then we as the people can stimulate the economy buy paying off loans,buying goods,etc... again ,no one is helping the mom and pop stores that fail.. whats the difference? ahh the federal reserve (privatly owned by who?) NOT FEDERAL AT ALL... WHY WONT PEOPLE DEMAND A STOP TO THIS ? i cannot even get my dem. and rep. representives to touch this topic , why ??? what are they afraid of ???

[1watertiger]

maybe we need to take this country back and redo, because the politicians dont care about any of us. what will it take for more people to get involved ? ( by the way, im still employed/benifits) however i see the big picture and i dont like it.Cleveland eviction riot of 1933 bears similarities to current woes - The Great Recession - cleveland.com. we may dis-agree on some points, but at least our headsare not in the sand like most of america. have a good day.

[000000]

1watertiger, do you ever plan on renting a dvd other than zeitgeist?

[1watertiger]

oooooo, lol, i thought zeitgeist was very interesting. you?

[000000]

Originally Posted by 1watertiger

i thought zeitgeist was very interesting.

i can tell. it came long after i was that impressionable, so i yawned.

[EarthBound?]

Weclome to (The Peoples Republic of Communist Ohio). Thats what I want to put on our Ohio flag and fly it on my flag pole. Just put the words in the white ring around the red circle and put a (Sickle and Hammer) in the middle. I betcha that'll get some attention, do ya thing?

[KenD]

Originally Posted by 1watertiger

i did watch the video, but i still disagree with giving banks(mismanaged/theft/greed) OUR money..i say let the cards fall where they may.. isnt that the true american way

Let's think about that, just for a second.

You wake up and the ATM machines are offline with all the banks closed. You can't make a purchase, not even with cash, because nobody is sure if the dollar is worth anything.

Maybe you can survive for a few days until you get down to eating three year old saltines and canned peas but I'll tell you what, most of America will be rioting before then, so it won't make a difference.

I would prefer to keep the cards where they are, thank you very much.

And no, that is not the American way. The American way is sitting up, looking adversity straight in the eye and tackling the roughest problems - or, at least, it used to be. I think I would like to return to those days, even if they were only a figment of Hollywood imagination and Ronald Reagan's somewhat confused memories.

Originally Posted by 1watertiger

... why not divide up the billions among us ?? its our money anyway. then we as the people can stimulate the economy buy paying off loans,buying goods,etc...

The best information that I have access to is telling me that there are three things wrong with that approach.

1.) If we were to hand out (let's say for the sake of argument $1Trillion) equally to the 300 million people who live in the United States legally, we would be talking about a whopping $3,333.33! I know it sounds like a lot, but is isn't. Most American families are in debt far more than that, heck, for a good piece of America, that equals less than three mortgage payments. In other words, not much would actually come of that plan.

2.) Inflation - even if it were temporary, is certainly a problem as would be the fact that a good number of people would blow the money buying goods made in China - which is exactly not what we are trying to accomplish.

3.) Aside from a very short tern cash injection into society, what help would this be? Would we end up with any new roads being built? Bridges fixed? What? The answer is nothing of any real and lasting value.

In fact, when all was said and done, who would get all of this money? Why the very same elites you believe are trying to take over the world.

Originally Posted by 1watertiger

again ,no one is helping the mom and pop stores that fail.. whats the difference?

As someone who has owned their own business since before you were born, I can feel for me - but I also understand that this isn't about me, it is about my country. I'm weird that way, I was a child when John Kennedy was president.

Originally Posted by 1watertiger

ahh the federal reserve (privatly owned by who?) NOT FEDERAL AT ALL... WHY WONT PEOPLE DEMAND A STOP TO THIS ? i cannot even get my dem. and rep. representives to touch this topic , why ??? what are they afraid of ???

Looking like jackasses?

You do understand that the Fed serves a very important purpose, right? You do understand that on more than one occasion the Fed has saved your buttocks by keeping our economy alive, right?

While nobody is going to tell you the Economics is a perfect science (I tend to think of it in the same category as Astrology) it serves us well, most of the time.

[1watertiger]

kend, why is it a bad idea to dissolve the federal reserve ? why would someone look like a jackass for saving millions and millions of dollars in interest ? i would applaud them not jeer them...and.. please explain to me how they saved our butts. remember they are not part of our government. why not have our own government issue money with no interest attached to itself? i dont think allowing a few people to have so much control over our economy is a good idea..... kend,i dont understand your astrology.

[KenD]

Too many things to address and really not enough time this morning, but I'll give it a shot...

Originally Posted by 1watertiger

kend, why is it a bad idea to dissolve the federal reserve?

And replace it with what? Do you understand under what circumstances the Federal Reserve was created? From what you've posted here I'm not sure if you understand what the Fed does or why it is in place. Can you give me a brief description of their function before I write up two pages on the concept?

Originally Posted by 1watertiger

why would someone look like a jackass for saving millions and millions of dollars in interest?

Where do you think this interest goes? Do you understand that the rise and fall of these interest rates is one of the very few tools we have in shaping the economy? How else would we mitigate inflation or stimulate spending (in other words control the economy) if these interest rates didn't exist?

Originally Posted by 1watertiger

i would applaud them not jeer them...

I'm sure you would until the economy crashed. You're probably too young to remember the 1970s when inflation and interest rates climbed out of control.



Have you ever been to a country where inflation is so rampant that the money you have in your pocket today had better be spent today or it will be worth half as much when you wake up the next day?

I have. You do not want this country to go there.

Originally Posted by 1watertiger

and.. please explain to me how they saved our butts.

In that video I linked you to we have a Rep. Paul Kanjorski stating,

...in mid-September of 2008, the United States of America came just three hours away from the collapse of the entire economy. In a span of 2 hours, $550 billion was drawn out of money market accounts in an electronic run on the banks.

Rep. Kanjorski: "It would have been the end of our economic system and our political system as we know it."

In two hours we had a half trillion dollar run on our banks. Once Wall Street's automated computer programs picked up on that run, they would have instituted a sell command that would have driven the stock market right to zero.


But the carnage wouldn't have stopped there, no, it would have triggered the exact same type of electronic self-defense on the rest of the world's stock markets, effectively driving them all to zero.


I'm sure you've heard about the Great Depression and you probably have a cursory understanding of what the period in history was like - but until you understand how that would translate into your life, I mean living under a bridge, with nothing to eat for days on end, that reality isn't going to really hit home.





This isn't some kind of alarmist joke, this is what could happen if we lose the dollar.


In the 1930s we had what was referred to as "Hoovervilles" one, famous such place was Centerville, Ohio. You might want to take a look at that link and think about what some of the people who hang out in another forum I frequent are referring to as Shruburbs. And when you're not too busy, take a drive through some of the worse areas of Youngstown and think about how far we are from the tipping point there.


And you want to do away with the one agency that seems to be effective in preventing this disaster?

Originally Posted by 1watertiger

remember they are not part of our government. why not have our own government issue money with no interest attached to itself?

Apparently you have no comprehension as to why interest rates are important and without trying to provide you a somewhat extensive course on economics, I'm not sure I can help you. You do need to dig into this subject, become further educated and come back when we can discuss this in a somewhat deeper vein.

Originally Posted by 1watertiger

i dont think allowing a few people to have so much control over our economy is a good idea.....

Other people, people who are educated in this area, disagree with you, as do I. While that doesn't mean anything on its own, it should give you pause to research this subject and continue this discussion when you are more familiar with it.

Originally Posted by 1watertiger

kend,i dont understand your astrology.

It was kind of a joke.

Economics is not what anyone would consider a science. There are many different opinions and while many points are pretty much universally agreed upon (such as the law of supply and demand) there are a lot of areas that no one claims to have a complete understanding of - hence the Astrology reference.



Please Note - all pictures included in this post are in the Public Domain and in cases where I was not sure, I linked to the source.