Ohio cities homicide rates (Cleveland, Toledo: military, gardens, safest)

[EarthBound?]

I just don't understand why people are so fixated on Clevelands homicide propblems. As far as I'm concerned, they can all kill each other off and it wouldn't bother me a bit. Most of its caused by drugs anyway, so let them die.
I try to avoid the news anymore because of all the negative things the news media harps on, I watch the weather on Ch 8, then change the channel to something fun to watch.

[Puddy4LyF]

Originally Posted by SeabeeBolt

I just don't understand why people are so fixated on Clevelands homicide propblems. As far as I'm concerned, they can all kill each other off and it wouldn't bother me a bit. Most of its caused by drugs anyway, so let them die.
I try to avoid the news anymore because of all the negative things the news media harps on, I watch the weather on Ch 8, then change the channel to something fun to watch.

Agreed. For me, it's almost a waste visiting this section of the forum because there is a large contingency of posters, although little traveled, are proud of the fact that their city is "the roughest' or 'most dangerous,' or 'uber-scary.' It's as if Cleveland, if it's not the best at something has to be purported as though it's the worst at something, and somehow, then it wins. Hell, one poster, in particular, glorifies this very same thing in his own login name. My guess is that for some, especially if they grew up in more difficult areas (which I didn't - we were poor but never lived in horribly rough areas as a child), it stands to make them feel stronger as people if they can say they survived living in x location and x location is x times more rough than y. On the other hand, I take great pride in making my first home purchase this December being in a terrific neighborhood where I can raise my kids without worrying about what school they'll be forced into (schools out here in Cali are brutally bad) or how they'll get home from school safely.

For Cle, I know I lived in downtown Cleveland and downtown Cleveland isn't rough at all, minus the two guys executed right in front of my building. Aside from that, the only thing we dealt with was panhandlers and a whole lot of homeless. I, however, am a traveler, a photographer, an explorer, a history buff. I need to know why things are the way they are. I have friends who live on the east side, I have friends who live in E. Cleveland, I have friends on the west side, and I'm an inherent explorer -- nah, I know what it is I'm talking about and I laid it all out pretty well and another poster put some crime statistics out for those Chicago neighborhoods and all the replies are the same -- attempt to attack where you've lived, even though it makes little difference if you are inherent traveler to other neighborhoods. If I played the same game with you, I would have said that N/S Central and W. Madison in Austin/Oak Park where I lived was worse than Humboldt Park, but I'm not going to paint you into some unfair corner. West Austin, alone, accounted for more than 4% of Chicago's monthly crime rate, tied with Englewood as the highest in the city. My only assertion is that you, in particular, haven't actually spent much time in Austin, Englewood, Back of the Yards, Garfield Park, or North Lawndale. I'm sorry you had to spend your life in horrible Cleveland neighborhoods and I wish you good luck in making the best of your life. I have noticed, however, a glorification in your posts - it doesn't matter where you've lived brother, it matters where you go from here.

[WeSoHood]

Originally Posted by SeabeeBolt

I just don't understand why people are so fixated on Clevelands homicide propblems. As far as I'm concerned, they can all kill each other off and it wouldn't bother me a bit. Most of its caused by drugs anyway, so let them die.
I try to avoid the news anymore because of all the negative things the news media harps on, I watch the weather on Ch 8, then change the channel to something fun to watch.

That comment is so ignorant. The problem is, regular citizens are being affected by these homicides. Just because you assume they are all drug related doesn't mean they are. There are a large proportion of innocent people killed and robbed, and assaulted.. and it makes me sick these people living in suburbs act like it's no big deal so "let them die." It's not an issue until you or a family member are in trouble.

What also makes me laugh is the fact that Puddy believes he's the only one who's a traveler, thus being more informed on the topic. LOL get out of here with that non-sense. You seem to think you are on a pedestal, when in reality, you aren't the only one who's lived or traveled the world. You have friends that live in East Cleveland? Oh really.. well so do I. I know a few who graduated Shaw HS.. who do you know? You probably don't know anyone. It just pisses me off when people like Puddy think they are so self righteous and know everything. You don't. Just because you've traveled, doesn't mean you've LIVED in the area. You think people are attacking YOU, when in reality, people are telling YOU how it is. People who live in the hood, people who grew up in the hood, not some photographer living on E. 4th downtown who's traveled to Chicago. I'm not bashing Chicago, I'm trying to tell you Cleveland is dangerous as it's impacted MY LIFE. I don't run around taking pictures of the hood, I live THERE.

[Puddy4LyF]

Was it you or another poster who said you'd never been to Chicago but was discussing it anyway? That's what I was referring to. Understandable, huh? You can go back a page or two for that.

Oh, now I don't know anyone in East Cleveland. Isn't that as self-righteous as telling me I'm acting self-righteous for saying that none of you have spent any time in Chicago's worst neighborhoods? Except that, all of you admitted it. How do you judge an area you've never been to? That has been my question all along. By the way, I volunteer for the NHF and there are countless people I visit who live there, and two of my best friends live off of E. 143rd.

And no one's denying that Cleveland has some dangerous hoods -- the whole city is a down-trodden armpit of a city. Who's denying that? Did you fail to comprehend the entire argument? You're defensive, and you have little idea as to what I was actually talking about, but you're so hood and we're so proud of you.

P.S. I didn't live on E.4th - Reserve Square is between E. 12th and 13th - I see you don't go downtown much. And I also don't live there anymore -- it was never my goal to live in a slum city the rest of my life. I live in the East Bay hills just outside San Francisco.

[EarthBound?]

Originally Posted by WeSoHood

That comment is so ignorant. The problem is, regular citizens are being affected by these homicides. Just because you assume they are all drug related doesn't mean they are. There are a large proportion of innocent people killed and robbed, and assaulted.. and it makes me sick these people living in suburbs act like it's no big deal so "let them die." It's not an issue until you or a family member are in trouble.

What also makes me laugh is the fact that Puddy believes he's the only one who's a traveler, thus being more informed on the topic. LOL get out of here with that non-sense. You seem to think you are on a pedestal, when in reality, you aren't the only one who's lived or traveled the world. You have friends that live in East Cleveland? Oh really.. well so do I. I know a few who graduated Shaw HS.. who do you know? You probably don't know anyone. It just pisses me off when people like Puddy think they are so self righteous and know everything. You don't. Just because you've traveled, doesn't mean you've LIVED in the area. You think people are attacking YOU, when in reality, people are telling YOU how it is. People who live in the hood, people who grew up in the hood, not some photographer living on E. 4th downtown who's traveled to Chicago. I'm not bashing Chicago, I'm trying to tell you Cleveland is dangerous as it's impacted MY LIFE. I don't run around taking pictures of the hood, I live THERE.

Oh well, sorry your feel that way. But my statement was just the way I feel about the problem (I don't Care ). I don't live in the suburbs, I live way out in the country, (thanks to the Creator). And I still don't care what6 happens in Cleveland or any other city, I try to avoid the cities at all cost. And when I do go into or pass through I'm usually packing a gun, for personnal protection. They could burn thier own slums or thier (HOODS) to the ground and I wouldn't even bat an eye at the problem. Out here, when we spot an unknown vehicle, we start calling each other to see whats going on, especially what county they come from. And most of us keep loaded weapons for a reason. Not the four legged animals, but for the two legged animals that come out here to do something stupid.
Its like what I told my DW, she always knows when I'm comeing home. So if some punk breaks into the house, just open fire. When she asked me, "what if is a 14 year old kid"? I just replied, "in the dark you cannot tell how old a person is, just shoot". We will sent thier mommy and daddy a thank you note later for the moving target. Why? because they broke into my home with intent to commit a crime and or harm, to bad.

[BelieveInCleve]

Puddy4Lyf, my point in saying I lived in Humboldt Park/Logan Square and East Chicago vs. the area you lived in (Oak Park) wasnt trying to show that it was more dangerous than the area you lived in, it was to point out that Oak Park isnt even in the city of Chicago and the area I lived in was, so I would know whats its like to actually live in the city of Chicago more than you would since technically you didnt even live in the city of Chicago and I did.

Im not sure if Im getting this part right, when did I ever "admit" that I hadnt been to the worst neighborhoods in Chicago? I thought I made it pretty clear this whole time that I had been to those areas and that me being or living in these places gives me more credibility in talking about them first hand than the people who havent lived or been to these places. The "safe" argument of "you havent been there so you dont know" wont work on me as far as the 2 other main cities brought up which are Philly and Chicago, because Im very familiar with both and have lived in both. I already addressed the Chicago "stats" brought up and its obvious to see they were off topic and irrelevant for the most part.

And as far as SeabeeBolt and the other topic brought up, thats easy for you to say. Ive lost many friends and family over the years to violence, and I dont believe any of them deserved it. As I mentioned just this year Ive already had 2 of my friends murdered, and although they were saints, they were not into anything serious and definitely did not deserve to die. Most of these people are born into this stuff, living in poverty in the ghetto and having to adapt to that lifestyle. You can say they can just get out of it, but thats much easier said than done. Ive had friends and family get killed during periods when they were trying to better themselves. Then there are others that are truly innocent and have no criminal record that are getting killed out there. It effects people a lot.

[EarthBound?]

Most people that live that kind of life style, ie. "punks, gang bangers, thugs, welfare riders, drug pushers, drug users" don't want to get out of it. So if they want that kind of life, then they can have it and keep it. All of us have the ability to break the chain and do something better with our lives. They live like that because they want too. And as long as they stay in thier life style, don't bring it out here, country boys love to hunt .
Its like what a fella once told me up in Montana when I asked him about MS13. He stated, "well son you see, we have gunsand we have shovels and we know all the best hiding spots to put them." I love that one

My biggest problem is, the news media love to talk about all the shootings and the stupid sports in Cleveland. Just give me the weather and whats going on with our government (The Creator Bless the Obamas ) and I'm happy. If you educate the and exercise the mind the butt will follow, but most of them don't want that. So, who cares, not me.

[WeSoHood]

Blah blah blah Puddy. I don't know where you live, you just stated in Downtown. LOL. I'm not going to devote my time to reading all your posts and collect data on you. I could actually care less. And I've never said I haven't been to Chicago. I simply stated you downplaying Cleveland is pathetic because YOU DON'T LIVE IN THE BAD AREA. You take PICTURES.

The one thing that makes me irate are individuals who THINK they know what goes on, but in reality have no idea. I'm not sure you understand that. But you travel, so you MUST know. Have fun in Vacaville. That city has some great views, but otherwise quite plain.

SEABOLT... good stories. But you still aren't addressing the people who aren't thugs or criminals who get robbed, assaulted, burglarized, and murdered. It happens when you live in a very urban place such as Cleveland. So save your stories for someone who cares. I have lost friends and family who were innocent bystanders, but YOU would probably pass them off as 'thugs' and 'gang-bangers' just because they live in a certain neighborhood. For you to say my loved ones deserved it, is sickening to be quite honest.

[EarthBound?]

Originally Posted by WeSoHood

Blah blah blah Puddy. I don't know where you live, you just stated in Downtown. LOL. I'm not going to devote my time to reading all your posts and collect data on you. I could actually care less. And I've never said I haven't been to Chicago. I simply stated you downplaying Cleveland is pathetic because YOU DON'T LIVE IN THE BAD AREA. You take PICTURES.

The one thing that makes me irate are individuals who THINK they know what goes on, but in reality have no idea. I'm not sure you understand that. But you travel, so you MUST know. Have fun in Vacaville. That city has some great views, but otherwise quite plain.

SEABOLT... good stories. But you still aren't addressing the people who aren't thugs or criminals who get robbed, assaulted, burglarized, and murdered. It happens when you live in a very urban place such as Cleveland. So save your stories for someone who cares. I have lost friends and family who were innocent bystanders, but YOU would probably pass them off as 'thugs' and 'gang-bangers' just because they live in a certain neighborhood. For you to say my loved ones deserved it, is sickening to be quite honest.

I never side that anyones "Loved ones or friends" deserve to be hurt, so please don't add whats not there.
But as for the rest of them ie, the thugs , gang bangers and the rest, so what if they die. When you live by the sword, you will die by the sword and the rest of us will sit back and laugh about it as we watch it on the news .
The families of the innocent should be allowed to take ball bats to the offenders .

[Puddy4LyF]

Originally Posted by Cle440

Puddy4Lyf, my point in saying I lived in Humboldt Park/Logan Square and East Chicago vs. the area you lived in (Oak Park) wasnt trying to show that it was more dangerous than the area you lived in, it was to point out that Oak Park isnt even in the city of Chicago and the area I lived in was, so I would know whats its like to actually live in the city of Chicago more than you would since technically you didnt even live in the city of Chicago and I did. I.E.
Where do you shop? It was more convenient to shop in Austin, and if you do shop in Oak Park, you do so with Austin residents. Where do you get on the train? You walk to Austin. Where were my favorite fast food joints? Austin. I was like 1 block from the technical border and if you've ever been over there, you certainly wouldn't see or notice a difference.

Im not sure if Im getting this part right, when did I ever "admit" that I hadnt been to the worst neighborhoods in Chicago? I thought I made it pretty clear this whole time that I had been to those areas and that me being or living in these places gives me more credibility in talking about them first hand than the people who havent lived or been to these places. The "safe" argument of "you havent been there so you dont know" wont work on me as far as the 2 other main cities brought up which are Philly and Chicago, because Im very familiar with both and have lived in both. I already addressed the Chicago "stats" brought up and its obvious to see they were off topic and irrelevant for the most part. (I also respect where you lived in North Philly because my fiancee went to LaSalle and in the summers, I lived off of Olny. I don't know how long you lived there, but having actually lived in one of Philly's worst neighborhoods, I give you the benefit of the doubt that you know a decent bit about living in Philly. However, you never lived or spent any time in any of the Chicago neighborhoods I mentioned and having said that, I don't think you offer a whole lot to that debate. We weren't talking about Philly, but if we were, I'd deem your opinion to be more than helpful.)

And as far as SeabeeBolt and the other topic brought up, thats easy for you to say. Ive lost many friends and family over the years to violence, and I dont believe any of them deserved it. As I mentioned just this year Ive already had 2 of my friends murdered, and although they were saints, they were not into anything serious and definitely did not deserve to die. Most of these people are born into this stuff, living in poverty in the ghetto and having to adapt to that lifestyle. You can say they can just get out of it, but thats much easier said than done. Ive had friends and family get killed during periods when they were trying to better themselves. Then there are others that are truly innocent and have no criminal record that are getting killed out there. It effects people a lot.

Here's how I know you don't know anything about Chicago, Cle. You keep stating I lived in Oak Park but fail to know the address I just gave you, which although is Oak Park, is far more Austin than ANYTHING in Oak Park. Someone who has spent any sort of length of time and has done any bit of examination of the neighborhoods knows that the western border of Austin and the eastern border of Oak Park are not in the least bit differentiated by anything more than city directory. I.E. Where do you shop? It's more convenient to shop in Austin, and if you do shop in Oak Park, you do so with Austin residents. Where do you get on the train? You walk to Austin. Where were my favorite fast food joints? Austin. I was like 1 block from the technical border and if you've ever been over there, you certainly wouldn't see or notice a difference.

The other reason I know you know nothing about Chicago is that you stated that since CG and RT homes were destroyed, the neighborhoods ''improved greatly.'' You can tell when someone has little to no understanding of the neighborhoods of a place like Chicago, or NYC, or say, San Francisco, because those 3 in particular, are so reliant on neighborhood structure. How long did you stay in HP? From the sounds of it, I'm guessing anywhere from 1 week to 3 months. It doesn't sound like you're capable of continuing (or even starting) an accurate discussion on a neighborhood examination when you only know one of the neighborhoods. I respect your guys' opinion on Cleveland neighborhoods - we both know where the worst areas are and what it means in the greater schemes, but if I were you, I'd leave the comparisons to other cities alone until you've spent more time. ((I also respect where you lived in North Philly because my fiancee went to LaSalle and in the summers, I lived off of Olny. I don't know how long you lived there, but having actually lived in one of Philly's worst neighborhoods, I give you the benefit of the doubt that you know a decent bit about living in Philly. However, you never lived or spent any time in any of the Chicago neighborhoods I mentioned and having said that, I don't think you offer a whole lot to that debate. We weren't talking about Philly, but if we were, I'd deem your opinion to be more than helpful.)

And what bugs me to no end is the continued fascination with 'you didn't live in the city like me,' or 'you didn't this or that' - it's the fecade and glorification of a part of life which doesn't deserve it. You lived in HP, and depending where in Hp you lived, you either lived in the gentrified HP or the slightly seedy HP. LS is a different story, but what is it do you think you survived by living in HP? lol It's like I just told you, West and South Austin, along with Englwood account for 1, 2, and 3 of Chicago's crime rates so far for this year. Spend time over in Englewood if you want to see an urban neighborhood gone bad, but of course, as you say, it's greatly improved now that one of the most famous projects of all time have been torn down (small dose of sarcasm).

I think we'll just end it here. There's really no need for me to continue discussion with 2 people so stuck in their narrow pre-fabricated opinions that no new information is going to seep in.