Ohio cities homicide rates (Columbus, Cleveland: low crime, houses, school district)

[jam40jeff]

It's not "what if". It's plain and simple logic. If you're 12 miles north of Columbus, in Delaware County, and still in the city of Columbus, how is that comparable to being in the city of Cleveland? If someone is going to want to live or shop or whatever in that area, they're going to be in Mentor or Avon around Cleveland. So why don't you compare Columbus's crime rate to Mentor's? So by your logic, if Cleveland regionalized and all suburbs became part of the city, it would overnight all of a sudden somehow be a much safer place? City limits are just invisble lines. Columbus and Cleveland as a whole are regional economies made up of downtown and surrounding neighborhoods feeding off the central city. Some are in the city limits and some are not. It just so happens that more of these neighborhoods are within the city limits in Columbus.

[JR_C]

I'm not sure of the best way to do an apples to apples comparrisson between cities.

Below, I picked a number of adjacant suburbs that, when added to Cleveland's population, total Columbus' population. (I just used City-Data's population for the smaller communities, but used numbers found on Wiki for Cleveland's and Columbus' population) You may disagree with my choices, but I chose locations that had crime stats for 2007. Places like East Cleveland, Bratenahl, etc. didn't have 2007 stats.

Another factor that I didn't consider is land area.

Here are the 2007 crime stats as listed by City-Data:
Cleveland: (pop. 438k +/-)
Murders 90
Rapes 374
Robberies 4022
Assaults 1958
Burglaries 9050
Thefts 11,184
Auto Thefts 6782
Arson 516

Lakewood (pop. 56k +/-)
Murders 2
Rapes 5
Robberies 49
Assaults 34
Burglaries 283
Thefts 889
Auto Thefts 154
Arson 14

Cleveland Heights (pop. 49k +/-)
Murders 1
Rapes 1
Robberies 21
Assaults 5
Burglaries 71
Thefts 398
Auto Thefts 76
Arson 0

Euclid (pop. 52k +/-)
Murders 2
Rapes 24
Robberies 106
Assaults 68
Burglaries 521
Thefts 924
Auto Thefts 186
Arson 4

Parma (pop. 85k +/-)
Murders 3
Rapes 24
Robberies 46
Assaults 107
Burglaries 526
Thefts 1018
Auto Thefts 161
Arson 29

Garfield Heights (pop. 30k +/-)
Murders 4
Rapes 11
Robberies 47
Assaults 78
Burglaries 250
Thefts 587
Auto Thefts 60
Arson 1

Warrensville Heights (pop. 15k +/-)
Murders 0
Rapes 3
Robberies 49
Assaults 5
Burglaries 159
Thefts 204
Auto Thefts 113
Arson 5

South Euclid (pop. 23k +/-)
Murders 2
Rapes 8
Robberies 30
Assaults 2
Burglaries 166
Thefts 356
Auto Thefts 58
Arson 4

Total of above communities (pop. 748k +/-)
Murders 104
Rapes 450
Robberies 4370
Assaults 2257
Burglaries 11,026
Thefts 15,560
Auto Thefts 7590
Arson 573

Columbus: (pop. 748k +/-)
Murders 79
Rape 661
Robberies 3849
Assaults 1680
Burglaries 14,370
Thefts 30,893
Auto Thefts 6228
Arson 638

[jam40jeff]

I don't even know where to go with your logic, it's so flawed. Cleveland's MSA has 500K more people than Columbus's, so it makes no sense to compare 750K to 750K. You're still excluding the outer suburbs of Cleveland, while including those areas (simply because they were annexed) in Columbus. The MSA rates as a whole tell you all you need to know.

What if you redrew the boundaries of the city of Cleveland to exclude areas such as Edgewater, Shaker Square, and University Circle? You could probably get almost the same number of crimes to fit into a much smaller population. This doesn't mean any areas of the Cleveland metro are now safer or more dangerous, simply that you have a new method of measurement.

[jam40jeff]

Furthermore, it's not an apples to apples comparison to compare 750K of Cleveland MSA to 750K of Columbus MSA (which would be the city). Cleveland MSA is a lot bigger, which means the urban area is bigger, as well as the suburban area. Columbus MSA is about 75% the size of Cleveland MSA. So to compare the two, you'd have to take 3/4 of the urban areas, and 3/4 of the suburban areas. But wait, that's why we have rates. You don't take 750K of a bad area of NYC and compare it to Cleveland to prove that Cleveland is safer, you compare the areas as a whole.

[JR_C]

I never said my comparison was apples to apples. I was just curious about how the numbers would compare, and decided to post the findings. There are a lot of factors that I didn't consider like land area/population density.

Here is a thread started by Cle440 with links to city and metro area crime rankings:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/ohio/...-rankings.html
If you notice, the Columbus metro area is rated higher (more dangerous) than Cleveland's metro area.

[BelieveInCleve]

You say my logic is flawed but parts of your argument make no sense whatsoever. Are you trying to prove that Columbus is more dangerous than Cleveland? or thats its comparable? Its not. Your numbers are also way off, Cleveland had 135 homicides in 2007 and East Cleveland had 12.

I dont even care much about this, but the fact is that Cleveland is much more dangerous than Columbus any way you cut it (besides metro numbers). Thats all there is to it. Noone thinks that Columbus is higher or comparable to Cleveland in crime rate. This should be obvious if youve ever spent a good amount of time in both areas. Theyre 2 very different cities with very different crime rates. Stop reaching.

[jam40jeff]

Sorry, JR_C, I was replying to Cle440.

I still maintain that Columbus, a smaller city, is just as dangerous of an area PER CAPITA as the Cleveland area. That is why the metro areas work out the wayu they do. I don't know how else to convey that, especially when I'm up against statements like "noone thinks that Columbus is higher", etc. I've spent a lot of time in Columbus, and I've seen some really nasty areas. I have no doubt that the numbers work out the way they do for a reason. There just isn't much of a difference in crime between the two cities. Raw numbers will not work out, of course, since the cities are of different sizes, but the per capita numbers are similar when you compare central city to central city, and suburbs to suburbs.

[JR_C]

Cle440,

jam40jeff and I are two different people. "My" numbers came from this website. I'm not claiming they're right. They were just the easiest numbers to obtain at the time.

The only reason I care is that Cleveland has a bad reputation that holds it back, and Columbus doesn't have this stigma. But, IMO, they are comparable.

[1watertiger]

fyi- when cleveland had a population of 750k, 200-300 murders a year occured. jam40feff, i dont understand your logic. a city is a city and all cities are a little different, why do you try and manipulate bounderies and populations to prove columbus is bad? i know cleveland is a ****-hole regarding too much crime. and i also know columbus is safer. metro wise columbus is a little worse.

[BelieveInCleve]

I dont know why its so important to you to prove that Columbus is just as bad as Cleveland. I tried to give ways to compare it and whenever you realize that you cant win that way, you give an excuse as to how its "apples to oranges". Then if it is that way we will never know, so theres no use for you trying to prove theyre the same. What we do know now is that currently Cleveland has around 440k population, Columbus has around 750k, and with that Cleveland has a much higher crime rate than Columbus. Furthermore Ive never met a person who has been to both areas for a good amount of time that thinks Columbus is worse or anywhere comparable to Cleveland as far as crime.

Im not saying that Cleveland and the Cleveland area is such a horrible place that noone should ever go to, its not that way it is a great area with good people and we could always use more good people around, but the city and certain areas around it do have very high crime and poverty rates.