Should Ohio become right to work state ? (Columbus, Cleveland: to buy, salaries)
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They're tiny. The only MSA in the state over (or even near) 1 million is Indianapolis. In Ohio, that list outnumbers Indiana by 4 to 1 (Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati, Dayton).
Are you now denying that the densely populated area in the NW corner of the state has nothing to do with Chicago being nearby in IL? They've even adopted the Central time zone -- just like Chicago. Lake county has 494,000 people in it. Porter has 163,000. But, I guess they're all there because Gary and Hammond have so much to offer and are both not under Chicago's regional influence.
They're tiny. The only MSA in the state over (or even near) 1 million is Indianapolis. In Ohio, that list outnumbers Indiana by 4 to 1 (Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati, Dayton).
Are you now denying that the densely populated area in the NW corner of the state has nothing to do with Chicago being nearby in IL? They've even adopted the Central time zone -- just like Chicago. Lake county has 494,000 people in it. Porter has 163,000. But, I guess they're all there because Gary and Hammond have so much to offer and are both not under Chicago's regional influence.
Actually, that would be US Steel former LTV and Inland, Bethlehem and other heavy industry that moved into the area in the early 1900's that caused the great migration into the Calumet region across 10 miles of Lake Michigan. Before US Steel built Gary Works, the area was complete marshland with sparsely populated areas, Gary's Miller section which predates the city. Munster. BTW, Gary-Hammond Metroplitan Division is Lake, Porter, Newton and Jasper counties. You forgot two counties.
Lake County for the most part was non-existent until heavy industry hit the area. Lastly, NWI isn't densely populated by any stretch. While the bulk of the population is in Northern Lake County north of Ridge Road (US 6), it's not very dense and never was outside of Midtown Gary that got up to 18k due to black migration as they couldn't live anywhere else in the city until Hatcher's election in '67 and Midtown is relatively small land wise.
NWI has ALWAYS been Central time just like Evansville 5 hours south. Indiana has NEVER been one continuous timezone. While it make sense for NWI to be central, if certain legislatures get their way it will either change to East or the entire state stay central. The division is actually a town in southern Indiana where half the town is central time and the other half is eastern so it splits the town in half.
As far as having a metro of 1 million plus doesn't make it any more real or fake than one that doesn't. As long as they fit the criteria of a MSA then guess what it's real. It's the equivalent of trying to proclaim a "real" city. If they have a mayor, city council, taxing entity and state charter says they are a city, then it's a real city regardless of how many people they have. If that were the case Akron and Toledo aren't REAL areas. Just figments of buckeye imaginations. A mirage sort of speak.
Just to keep the topic RTW, Ohio being a RTW state could actually benefit hard pressed heavy industry towns like Youngstown where you have workers that have the skill set but for a myriad of reasons, companies stay away from and not really want to make that initial investment. Not only that, you also have the facilities that could be converted, modernized, etc. to help lure those same companies compared to places where they have to build from scratch. Sure the wages may be slightly lower starting out but hard pressed areas need jobs irregardless of how much they pay.
There are plenty of jobs and factories coming to the Youngstown area and none of them are union. Although, I'm sure the trade guys building our new $650 million dollar steel mill and many of the other new factories here are unionized.
Actually, that would be US Steel former LTV and Inland, Bethlehem and other heavy industry that moved into the area in the early 1900's that caused the great migration into the Calumet region across 10 miles of Lake Michigan. Before US Steel built Gary Works, the area was complete marshland with sparsely populated areas, Gary's Miller section which predates the city. Munster. BTW, Gary-Hammond Metroplitan Division is Lake, Porter, Newton and Jasper counties. You forgot two counties.
And, none of this had anything to do with the proximity to Chicago...
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Lake County for the most part was non-existent until heavy industry hit the area. Lastly, NWI isn't densely populated by any stretch. While the bulk of the population is in Northern Lake County north of Ridge Road (US 6), it's not very dense and never was outside of Midtown Gary that got up to 18k due to black migration as they couldn't live anywhere else in the city until Hatcher's election in '67 and Midtown is relatively small land wise.
And, none of this had anything to do with the proximity to Chicago...
NWI (especially the 2 counties in the Chicagolans Metroplex) is as or more densely populated than any other area in the state not named to Indianapolis.
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NWI has ALWAYS been Central time
And, none of this had anything to do with the proximity to Chicago...
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As far as having a metro of 1 million plus doesn't make it any more real or fake than one that doesn't. As long as they fit the criteria of a MSA then guess what it's real. It's the equivalent of trying to proclaim a "real" city. If they have a mayor, city council, taxing entity and state charter says they are a city, then it's a real city regardless of how many people they have. If that were the case Akron and Toledo aren't REAL areas. Just figments of buckeye imaginations. A mirage sort of speak.
Notice that I didn't list either of them as major metros. Akron and Canton are satellite cities of Cleveland. Toledo is a minor industrial city which thrived on the fact that it was situated between Cleveland and Detroit.
The argument isn't whether they can be legally defined as a city. The argument is whether that city has any REAL influence. Indianapolis is the lone soldier in Indiana. That ain't a mirage, it's a fact. And, as log as it is the sole fact presented that is even pertinent to in-state migration, what I stated earlier about Indianapolis' "growth" still stands. Furthermore, the mere fact that RTW passed in Indiana about a month ago, the "growth" of Indianapolis cannot be correlated. Indiana won't realize the impact of the legislation for at least a decade.
msam - This is very much on topic as there are a few people who are attributing state and local growth over the past 10 years to a labor law that passed a month ago.
Just to keep the topic RTW, Ohio being a RTW state could actually benefit hard pressed heavy industry towns like Youngstown where you have workers that have the skill set but for a myriad of reasons, companies stay away from and not really want to make that initial investment. Not only that, you also have the facilities that could be converted, modernized, etc. to help lure those same companies compared to places where they have to build from scratch. Sure the wages may be slightly lower starting out but hard pressed areas need jobs irregardless of how much they pay.
First, who is going to foot the bill to covert old, existing buildings? Certainly not the public or tax payers. The local gov'ts throughout the nation are having a hard enough time keeping the lights on and police on the streets. Throwing money into worn down buildings is not in the budget.
Second, sometime starting from scratch is cheaper than fixing the existing.
Third, new jobs do not have to be union. That is not a state law. Companies can still come in without RTW legislation being passed and offer positions with lower wages and no unions.
^Correct, when was the last time you ever heard of someone organizing? I can't recall once instance. The unionized places have been unionized forever and the new places are not. If you treat your workers well you don't need a union. Not to mention the fact that right-to-work states still have unions, so if you get this law passed you won't totalliy do away w/unions. There are unions in the south........
And, none of this had anything to do with the proximity to Chicago...
USS is PBG based, they already had their big plant on the river. They needed something huge in which Gary Works is. Chicago didn't have the land to accommodate anything of that nature to the sum of about 5k acres. The marshlands of the calumet were unoccupied sans few small stop through places like Miller Junction ie. Miller. It was more cheap land and close to the iron mines of MN and Michigan's Upper Pen.
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Notice that I didn't list either of them as major metros. Akron and Canton are satellite cities of Cleveland. Toledo is a minor industrial city which thrived on the fact that it was situated between Cleveland and Detroit.
The argument isn't whether they can be legally defined as a city. The argument is whether that city has any REAL influence. Indianapolis is the lone soldier in Indiana. That ain't a mirage, it's a fact. And, as log as it is the sole fact presented that is even pertinent to in-state migration, what I stated earlier about Indianapolis' "growth" still stands.
Importance is in the eye of the beholder. For a time Akron was the rubber industry, surprisingly, they are their own MSA irregardless of whether or not Ohioians consider them satellite cities of Cleveland. Gary's importance, yes has greatly diminished over the decades, but that was due to America losing industrial dominance. Gary is probably the only city that will go down in history as being more corrupt than Chicago and throughout its history held a lot of clout at the state and federal level. When you're home to the world's largest steel mill that just happens to be owned by the world's first billion dollar company, it affords you a few things and lends a few ears which until the mid-late 70's, NWI didn't rely on Chicago for anything. It didn't have the massive population but it definitely had everything else and a very robust economy even though it was a one trick pony which ended up being its downfall.
Also knowing Indiana a little better will help. There's Indiana and then there's "Da Region." Indiana's democratic stronghold is Lake County. Marion County might be swinging more liberal but all in all is right now completely split down the middle. Democrat can't win a statewide office without Lake County. NWI is the second most important area in the state, much to the dismay of Indianapolis. Granted Indianapolis has done a lot of things right over the past few decades embraced regionalism (probably one of the first cities to actually incorporate that concept) but being the state capital it pretty much gets what it wants sooner or later from the state whereas NWI and Lake County in particular in a Republican controlled state will continue to get the shaft at every turn. It's the states second larges economy as well but surprisingly could actually be top dog in Indiana if they actually worked together. Smaller state population but part of the 3rd largest media market, mega msa and the Indiana side does draw people from Illinois. Beaches are 10 times better, cheaper and the only water park between Michigan and Wisconsin Dells. If done right, NWI could easily draw more south suburban customers. Nothern Chicago burbs not so much, too far of a drive but the south burbs very easily draw more than they already draw. The immediate access to people could make it Indiana's largest economy, just petty bickering between municipal borders and everyone hates Gary.
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msam - This is very much on topic as there are a few people who are attributing state and local growth over the past 10 years to a labor law that passed a month ago.
Furthermore, the mere fact that RTW passed in Indiana about a month ago, the "growth" of Indianapolis cannot be correlated. Indiana won't realize the impact of the legislation for at least a decade.
I'm not arguing whether or not RTW contributed to Indianapolis growth, it hasn't, the law just went to effect.
First, who is going to foot the bill to covert old, existing buildings? Certainly not the public or tax payers. The local gov'ts throughout the nation are having a hard enough time keeping the lights on and police on the streets. Throwing money into worn down buildings is not in the budget.
Second, sometime starting from scratch is cheaper than fixing the existing.
Third, new jobs do not have to be union. That is not a state law. Companies can still come in without RTW legislation being passed and offer positions with lower wages and no unions.
Sometimes, it's easier to convert than build from scratch. As an example, since NWI was brought up the old Budd plant on Gary's west side, 1 million+ sq feet, already designed for heavy industry and can hold any type of equipment and sits directly on 4 rail lines would be better suited being repurposed than a having a company build from scratch. It would be cheaper and you already have every amenity that a major manufacturer will need and then some and you won't find better logistics. A plethora of mini-mills, cement, water and rail transportation right there, 3 ports. Here's the thing, tax payers pay in part through incentives to said company to build brand new plants, nowadays out in the middle of nowhere. If the taxpayer is going to help foot that bill, wouldn't it not be more prudent to use existing structures that are more than likely in established places where people can get to the jobs? That way you have another parcel back on the property tax roles which of course helps your tax base and reduce your own personal property tax.
Sometimes, it's easier to convert than build from scratch. As an example, since NWI was brought up the old Budd plant on Gary's west side, 1 million+ sq feet, already designed for heavy industry and can hold any type of equipment and sits directly on 4 rail lines would be better suited being repurposed than a having a company build from scratch. It would be cheaper and you already have every amenity that a major manufacturer will need and then some and you won't find better logistics. A plethora of mini-mills, cement, water and rail transportation right there, 3 ports. Here's the thing, tax payers pay in part through incentives to said company to build brand new plants, nowadays out in the middle of nowhere. If the taxpayer is going to help foot that bill, wouldn't it not be more prudent to use existing structures that are more than likely in established places where people can get to the jobs? That way you have another parcel back on the property tax roles which of course helps your tax base and reduce your own personal property tax.
When tax payers give a tax incentive to bring in a company, they are giving away money that is not already allocated in the budget. They are essentially giving away money that wasn't built into the budget, so no true spending going on - just no incoming for that tax base.
I completely agree that using existing buildings is sometimes more efficient than not. However, in the warehouse / industrial real estate market, there is a known issue with the building deteriorating to the point that repairing is most costly than replacing.
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