Terrain around Oklahoma City (Tulsa, Norman: crime rates, home, bankrupt)

[Mattie Jo]

Hi, I was considering moving close to Oklahoma City, but then the tornadoes bothered me. Also my husband thought that maybe it was all flat there. I like some rolling hills, but I prefer green over any of it. What is it like in Stillwater and surrounding areas?

[Jammie]

Check your private messages.

[Nameless]

The reason your husband thought that is because it's one of the biggest stereotype's on this city. But it's not true, we don't have big hills or mountains, just gently rolling hills. I've never even been to Stillwater, and it's only an hour away. But what I've heard is it's a bit more green and hilly. But I've heard it's compareable to OKC.

[Griffis]

Very little of Oklahoma has much to offer by way of scenery. OKC area especially. It's a hell hole and the surrounding environs are flat and largely treeless.

Because of the freakish heat for several months of the year, it's not even green, it's all sort of yellowish-beige. Oh, and the beautiful red clay flat earth everywhere.

Yes, Stillwater is prettier, but it is also a hellhole. Hope you like lousy college football. Other than that and Eskimo Joe's hangout for frat rats, there's nothing there. Although Stillwater is a kind of halfway point between OKC and Tulsa. A little over an hour from each.

If you want Oklahoma and "pretty" to coincide, you really have to get up around Tulsa which is a much nicer city than OKC (but still very high crime) with a little more culture. They call the Tulsa area "Green Country" because it is in the foothills of the Ozarks and thus a bit more lush and green and hilly. There are some areas outside of Tulsa that are rather pretty,

The Tulsa area is also cleaner and in Tulsa you know where you are-- the "good" parts of town are easily distingished from the "bad" parts of town, whereas in OKC, it's one nice residential area next to a bunch of slums, a couple of mansions in the midst of some fugly businesses. One block seems decent but the next is "drive-by shooting land." You can go from a nice tree-lined street to something that looks like a post-nuclear dead zone in a moment's time.

They've built up Bricktown, in OKC quite a bit lately, but it's just a haven for yuppies and sports freaks. It has a very fake "PLEASE come visit our crappy city" feel to it.

Tulsa has much nicer parks, etc. And the surrounding towns are prettier to look at. But not much.

Isn't there anywhere other than Oklahoma on your list? Arkansas is right next door to the east and while I wouldn't personally want to live there either, at least it is really beautiful in parts.

[Nameless]

Originally Posted by Griffis

Very little of Oklahoma has much to offer by way of scenery. OKC area especially. It's a hell hole and the surrounding environs are flat and largely treeless.

Because of the freakish heat for several months of the year, it's not even green, it's all sort of yellowish-beige. Oh, and the beautiful red clay flat earth everywhere.

Yes, Stillwater is prettier, but it is also a hellhole. Hope you like lousy college football. Other than that and Eskimo Joe's hangout for frat rats, there's nothing there. Although Stillwater is a kind of halfway point between OKC and Tulsa. A little over an hour from each.

If you want Oklahoma and "pretty" to coincide, you really have to get up around Tulsa which is a much nicer city than OKC (but still very high crime) with a little more culture. They call the Tulsa area "Green Country" because it is in the foothills of the Ozarks and thus a bit more lush and green and hilly. There are some areas outside of Tulsa that are rather pretty,

The Tulsa area is also cleaner and in Tulsa you know where you are-- the "good" parts of town are easily distingished from the "bad" parts of town, whereas in OKC, it's one nice residential area next to a bunch of slums, a couple of mansions in the midst of some fugly businesses. One block seems decent but the next is "drive-by shooting land." You can go from a nice tree-lined street to something that looks like a post-nuclear dead zone in a moment's time.

They've built up Bricktown, in OKC quite a bit lately, but it's just a haven for yuppies and sports freaks. It has a very fake "PLEASE come visit our crappy city" feel to it.

Tulsa has much nicer parks, etc. And the surrounding towns are prettier to look at. But not much.

Isn't there anywhere other than Oklahoma on your list? Arkansas is right next door to the east and while I wouldn't personally want to live there either, at least it is really beautiful in parts.

How can you see Oklahoma has little to offer in scenery? It's not the most beautiful state, but it's been rated time and time again as having the most changing terrain in the country! I spent a weekend over at lake Tenkiller recently, absolutely beautiful area, hilly, green, everything Oklahoma is said not to have.

By all means, Oklahoma City is not a "hell hole". Sometimes people also find beauty in the plains grasslands, nothing says that can't be beautiful.

Oklahoma City is bigger than Tulsa, most people just consider Tulsa to be better because it has more "culture" and better "scenery". Oh and there are areas outside Oklahoma City that a rather pretty as well.

By your post I assume you are living in Tulsa. Because this comment sounds typcial of a person from there. I'm not saying Tulsa isn't beautiful, I'm just saying Oklahoma City has it's own beauty.

As far as Bricktown goes, I don't know what makes it such a fake area that begs for people to visit it. Won't all the projects of Vision 2025 in Tulsa say that same thing.


Now, if you want to talk about "flat" cities. Then let's name a few.

Miami
New Orleans
Houston
Phoenix
Detroit
Chicago

In fact most of Miami is between sea level and 10+ elevation. Where are the hills? Same with New Orleans. Do people ever talk about how flat they are? Nope. Oklahoma City metro is between 900 - 1400 elevation, depending on your location. That says "rolling hills" to me.

[Mattie Jo]

Thank you for you posts. I began looking east of Muskogee and think I would like it there because it is at the foothills of the Ozarks and has lakes, etc.

I can't imagine that OC is a hell hole. Since posting this I have seen photos of the area around Muskogee, and it is beautiful.

[Griffis]

Maybe I misspoke. But make no mistake, Oklahoma City is a Hell Hole. Tulsa is too, just a wee prettier and a little more going on. Both have crumbling infrastructures, crooked politicians, astoundingly high violent crime rates (in between Chicago and that OTHER hell hole, L.A. and both much higher than NYC.)

No, I do not live in Tulsa, though I have in the past and have some family still there. I have also lived and worked in Oklahoma City. I'm in Norman now. Unfortunately, still in Oklahoma.

But Nameless, does it surprise you that Tulsa is considered by most people to be slightly less of a hell hole when it has, as you yourself say, better scenery and more culture? Aren't those qualities that would MAKE a place a little better?

Now, these other places you mentioned:

Miami
New Orleans
Houston
Phoenix
Detroit
Chicago

What can I say-- they are all hell holes too! I've been to every one of these cities and they ALL suck. And I lived in New Orleans and Chicago for quite some time. Also used to live near to Phoenix and was there on a regular basis. Yuck.

At least N.O and Chicago have beautiful architecture and a lot to offer as far as things to do. But the crime is pretty bad and I would never live in either one again. As for Miami, Detroit and Houston...sheesh. Hard to decide which is the worst. They are all so terrible. Really, truly dreadful. I admit, I'd live in OKC or Tulsa before I'd EVER live in freakin' Miami, Detroit or Houston. Houston has got to be one of the ugliest, hottest, trafficky, crowded wastelands ever to be called an American city.

Jessaka, Muskogee isn't a terrible choice really. Tahlequah is also fairly pretty. But why go for "fairly pretty" in some small areas in a mostly flat and ugly state fueled by football and ignorance when you could live somewhere nearby that is far prettier. Arkansas is full of redneck conservatives just like Oklahoma, but at least it is pretty. The Ozarks in Missouri are pretty too, and probably have more festivals, fairs, general things-to-do.

Again, I will say, there are some things about Oklahoma to recommend it. Overall the people are at least friendly for the most part, esp. in smaller towns. Outside of OKC and Tulsa metro areas, crime is better than it is in a lot of other states, and cost of living isn't as bad as it is in most other states (but this is largely because the taxes suck and people don't get paid squat.)

Yes, some people do like flat areas of hundreds of acres of nothing but grass (whoo-hoo!) and Oklahoma does indeed have some of the only remaining tall grass prairieland in the US, but you gotta get WAY outside of OKC to see it.

[Griffis]

PS-- Nameless, I'm really not trying to pick a fight, but first off, have you ever been anywhere else? LIVED anywhere else? Because if you think Tenkiller is pretty, I don't think you've been around too much. All the lakes in Oklahoma are man made and murky and ugly. Grand Lake is the prettiest, but it's no great shakes. I grew up in Minnesota. They have real lakes there. Beautiful ones at that. Or Lake Champlain...water so blue you can see to the bottom. I don't think many people who have been on lakefronts in other states would classify Tenkiller as terribly pretty.

And when you say:

"As far as Bricktown goes, I don't know what makes it such a fake area that begs for people to visit it."

Well, what makes it that is that they threw hundreds of millions of dollars into a run down abandoned post-nuclear looking downtown hell area and turned it into a crappy schill specifically to promote tourism (? In THIS state?) that is now a big hangout for yuppies and frat rats who like to get drunk and hang out at Bass Pro Shops. It's not a "beautiful historic district", it's a shiny new neon infested glorified strip mall that exists where it does because they couldn't think of any other place in that cruddy, cruddy city to cram it in. Like the rest of OKC, it has no character whatsoever.

And by the way, that money could have been put to about a kajillion better uses. Like more cops, sorely needed in such a gang and crime-ridden wasteland. Or into education--better pay for teachers (Oklahoma ranks among the bottom 5 in teacher's salaries...in fact, I believe it was second to last in '04 or '05 (I think this says a lot about a place and its values)--or improved schools and equipment (which in Okalhoma would have all gone to the athletics dept. anyway, the only thing anyone in Oklahoma has any cause to have pride in, which is tragic)-- or an actual museum--not just a Cowboy Hall of Fame or sports museum--or, etc., etc.

And as for this:

"Won't all the projects of Vision 2025 in Tulsa say that same thing."

Undoubtedly true. Plus, while I still prefer Tulsa as the lesser of two evils for a good number of well reasoned and perfectly justifiable reasons, Tulsa IS home to that abomination Oral Roberts University. A bastion of intolerance and ignorance as well as being the tackiest looking campus on the face of the earth. So, I'll give you that.

Jessaka-- please remember that while Muskogee and some other towns around there do have some prettiness to them, there's little to do (which is why every young person leaves as soon as they can) and that when you look up a town on the internet, of course they only show the prettiest shots they can get a highly paid photographer to snap. Heck, even Houston probably is made to look good if you look at it through the internet.

[Nameless]

Originally Posted by Griffis

PS-- Nameless, I'm really not trying to pick a fight, but first off, have you ever been anywhere else? LIVED anywhere else? Because if you think Tenkiller is pretty, I don't think you've been around too much. All the lakes in Oklahoma are man made and murky and ugly. Grand Lake is the prettiest, but it's no great shakes. I grew up in Minnesota. They have real lakes there. Beautiful ones at that. Or Lake Champlain...water so blue you can see to the bottom. I don't think many people who have been on lakefronts in other states would classify Tenkiller as terribly pretty.

And when you say:

"As far as Bricktown goes, I don't know what makes it such a fake area that begs for people to visit it."

Well, what makes it that is that they threw hundreds of millions of dollars into a run down abandoned post-nuclear looking downtown hell area and turned it into a crappy schill specifically to promote tourism (? In THIS state?) that is now a big hangout for yuppies and frat rats who like to get drunk and hang out at Bass Pro Shops. It's not a "beautiful historic district", it's a shiny new neon infested glorified strip mall that exists where it does because they couldn't think of any other place in that cruddy, cruddy city to cram it in. Like the rest of OKC, it has no character whatsoever.

And by the way, that money could have been put to about a kajillion better uses. Like more cops, sorely needed in such a gang and crime-ridden wasteland. Or into education--better pay for teachers (Oklahoma ranks among the bottom 5 in teacher's salaries...in fact, I believe it was second to last in '04 or '05 (I think this says a lot about a place and its values)--or improved schools and equipment (which in Okalhoma would have all gone to the athletics dept. anyway, the only thing anyone in Oklahoma has any cause to have pride in, which is tragic)-- or an actual museum--not just a Cowboy Hall of Fame or sports museum--or, etc., etc.

And as for this:

"Won't all the projects of Vision 2025 in Tulsa say that same thing."

Undoubtedly true. Plus, while I still prefer Tulsa as the lesser of two evils for a good number of well reasoned and perfectly justifiable reasons, Tulsa IS home to that abomination Oral Roberts University. A bastion of intolerance and ignorance as well as being the tackiest looking campus on the face of the earth. So, I'll give you that.

Jessaka-- please remember that while Muskogee and some other towns around there do have some prettiness to them, there's little to do (which is why every young person leaves as soon as they can) and that when you look up a town on the internet, of course they only show the prettiest shots they can get a highly paid photographer to snap. Heck, even Houston probably is made to look good if you look at it through the internet.

As a matter of fact I have. I'm 16 and I've been to 40 states. I'm missing California, Arizona, Montana, Nebraska, South and North Dakota, Kentucky, Florida, Alsaka and Hawaii. I've spent most summers in Ithaca, New York. Been almost everywhere imaginable in the northeast. Tenkiller isn't the prettiest place, but it's certainly not ugly. Most of my family is from Iowa and Wisconsin, so I do know what real lakes are. Not trying to sound rude or anything. But I hear what you're saying.

I do have to agree now about what you said about Bricktown, but truth of the matter is, that's what the people want and nowadays it will attract tourism better than historic areas.

I don't know...Oklahoma City isn't the greatest place by any means, but I certaintly wouldn't call it a "hell hole". Don't go to Tulsa much so I can't say. Any place will have it's flaws of course.

[Griffis]

Nameless, thanks for your polite response to what was (on my side of things) a pretty strong post. I know I get overboard, but having been in most other areas of the USA and other countries as well, it just seems like so many places have so much more to offer, or are more in line with the kind of feelings my wife and I have.

There ARE worse places than Oklahoma and OKC, by far. No argument there.

My main things are the heat. I just can't stand it. And I can't fathom why anyone would voluntarily live where it's over 100 degrees for a solid month and a half in the summers and there's hardly ever any snow.

Next on the list is the politics of conservativism that are so strong here. Not trying to start a political debate (I think all politicians are pretty much crooked and untrustworthy), but in this state what I fear will happen is that within the next 10 years they'l be teaching creationism in the school, and that the earth is only 6000 years old. More than that is the feeling most people seem to have that Bush is great and we should stand behind him even when his policies have bankrupted to economy, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and he sends kids off to die so that he and his buddies can reap oil profits.

To me, that is all nonsense and I don't want my kids brought up in that environment.

But to each his own. Take care and be well!