Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Nice post Studying Okie. You data backs up what I have been saying all along.
Oklahoma has been absorbed by the old southern states simply due to the fact that Oklahoma was the number one destination for southerners to relocate after reconstruction.
Some sources claim that almost 90% of land runners were from former confederate states.
I think the best way to define the south is dialect and religious affiliation.
Southern Dialect
Religious affiliation
The only part of your post that I disagree with is the Oklahoma actually has very little land that is considered part of the great plains. Most of Oklahoma is situated on the cross timbers and Interior Highlands.
That isn't what this data means. To my knowledge, Oklahoma was settled more by southerners than by people from the midwest. This data shows that there is a significantly lower percentage of people with German ancestry in Oklahoma than in any of the midwestern states, and that Oklahoma being shaded the same as them is misleading. This data also shows that Oklahoma has a higher than average prevalence of people claiming American ancestry, which is unique to the southern states.
The reason ethnicity and origin of Oklahoma's settlers is important to the "southern vs midwestern" debate is that the people who moved to Oklahoma took their cultures with them. Plainly and simply, both the Midwest and the South are cultural regions more than topographic regions. Oklahoma has more land on the Great Plains than mountain land or swamp land or forested land, and so it's one of the Plains states. But culturally, Oklahoma has more southern culture than any other culture because it contains more southerners, and therefore is part of the South.
Cultural influence from the South came first with the 5 Civilized Tribes being forced to settle here. Many of the Indians had already adopted southern culture, language, lifestyle, were educated southern schools, and held slaves. When they moved to Oklahoma (back then it was unorganized territory), they brought this with them. By the time the Civil War rolled around all 5 tribes had signed treaties with the Confederacy and broken their treaties with the U.S. Government. U.S. troops in Oklahoma forts withdrew to defend Kansas (which had just become part of the Union), and rebel troops took possession of the forts guarding Oklahoma. The tribes even sent representatives to Richmond to the Confederate Congress (which they didn't have before in the U.S. Congress). There were some Indians (like the Cherokees) who didn't fight the U.S. Government and did fight their own tribesmen, but this was not a majority. The tribes, and Choctaws in particular, were strongly tied to the South economically. Without the South they would have no outlet for their cotton and corn, which was shipped down river to New Orleans. Oklahoma was controlled by Confederate infantry from elsewhere in the South until things went bad for the Confederacy and they needed to move the troops to guard important trade posts and cities in Texas and Arkansas. This left mostly Confederate Indians like Stand Watie to fight here. Union troops took back land in the northeastern part of Oklahoma, but couldn't stop the Confederate Indians from raiding their supply lines until 1865 when Stand Watie was the last Confederate General to surrender.
The war itself decimated the farms and villages of the 5 Civilized Tribes. They, like their counterparts in the rest of the former Confederacy, were ruined financially and physically. The U.S. Government renegotiated their treaties with the tribes in 1866 and that's when slavery was abolished in Oklahoma, and the freedmen had to be enrolled in each tribe. The Government took the western half of the territory to resettle plains tribes into it. These Reconstruction treaties were the first time the term Oklahoma was officially used.
Slavery was now illegal in Indian Territory, but there was still labor needed. Like the rest of the South, the practice known as sharecropping attracted impoverished people to do cheap farm work for land owners, who were still Indians. In the decades after the Civil War and before Oklahoma was divided into Indian Territory and Oklahoma Territory, thousands of white southerners and freedmen worked the cotton fields owned by Indians. This was everywhere in the eastern part of Oklahoma. It was illegal for anyone but members of the tribes to own land in the Indian Territory, but Indians would sell their land to whoever could buy it. There was virtually no migration into Oklahoma at this time except from white southerners escaping Reconstruction.
Greer County, Texas (or Jackson, Greer, Harmon, and part of Beckham counties, Oklahoma) was designated by the state of Texas to be settled by Confederate veterans. Arguably this area was part of Texas when it seceded from the Union, but was later considered to have been a part of the Indian Territory. Either way, white southerners settled this area before the land runs and paid taxes to the state of Texas.
Northern politicians pushed for the western portion of Indian Territory to be opened for settlement. In the 1866 treaties with the tribes they had basically confiscated the western half of Indian Territory and there was no permanent settlement there. People like the Boomers, led by Payne, would go into this territory and start settling. They would be thrown out each time, but eventually the territory was opened for settlement. By this time most of Texas, Kansas, and the other states with open, farmable land had already been settled.
The famous land runs occurred in the northwestern, north-central, and central portions of Oklahoma in 1889. Trains from Arkansas City, Kansas and Caldwell, Kansas brought people from the midwest into Oklahoma as far as Guthrie. Purcell in the Indian Territory was a staging point for people from the South (and the Indian Territory) to access the Oklahoma City area by train. Towns were established overnight and the first non-southern, permanent settlement began in Oklahoma. The land runs weren't clean or fair; some people died and others discovered that "Sooners" had already staked claims on the land. The next year Oklahoma Territory was officially formed.
By all accounts the majority of the land run settlers were in fact from the midwest. There are well-known Czech communities like Yukon and Prague, but the actual amount of European-born settlers was insignificant (the 1910 census shows that less than 10% of Oklahomans were European-born or had European-born parents).There were southerners in the land runs who settled the areas closest to their starting point, which was around Oklahoma City and Cleveland County. A Georgia southerner founded the Daily Oklahoman in 1889 in Oklahoma City, and it was known for being a pro-Democrat, pro-Jim Crow newspaper.
Since the land runs were not the ideal way to settle the territory, the U.S. Government decided to change the
format from land run to land lottery, and the southern portion of Oklahoma Territory was settled by people who were lucky enough to win the land lottery. These people weren't from the midwest, but from the South; mostly Texans. Basically in what was Oklahoma Territory, Northerners settled the parts close to Kansas, and Southerners settled the parts close to Texas. To this day the North-South cultural division can be seen simply by looking at a map of voter registration by county. Republicans represented the North, and therefore are the majority in the Northwestern part of the state, but in the Southwestern, Southeastern, and Northeastern parts of Oklahoma Democrats (representing the South) still form the majority. Numerous newspapers in the southern parts of the state have or had Democrat in the title of the paper. Today the OKC and Tulsa metros have majority Republican voters, but at least in Oklahoma County this was not the case until 2002.
In 1890 the Panhandle and its residents were made part of Oklahoma Territory. There were not a lot of people in this area. In 1896 Greer County was added to the territory by the Supreme Court.
Of course in 1907 the two territories were combined into the State of Oklahoma. Migration into Oklahoma continued beyond statehood, but not much. Until the Great Depression people still migrated into Oklahoma; more southerners flocked to the eastern part of the state and midwesterners flocked to the northern part of the state. Tulsa, Oklahoma City, and Seminole County boomed during this period, mostly due to oil and not agriculture.
The population of Oklahoma Territory may have been half midwesterners and half southerners, or maybe even slightly favoring one group, but when you factor in the addition of the Indian Territory to this (with its population of white southerners, freedmen, and Indians), the balance at statehood easily favors people from the South. The territories had comparable populations in 1907.
The reason Southern Baptists dominate Oklahoma and that you can hear the Southern accent even in places like Enid and Guymon can be explained by cultural assimilation. When people from disparate backgrounds all converged on Oklahoma Territory, they had to interact with one another and form communities and economic opportunities. This explains the Southern accent in people who live in rural northwestern Oklahoma. In the communities sandwiched between the panhandle and the Kansas border, I wouldn't expect to hear a southern accent, but in Kingfisher, Stillwater, and other communities where there would have been midwesterners and southerners in close proximity, they certainly would pick up each other's dialect.
The European immigrant community would have felt a greater pressure to adopt Southern Baptist religion and the Southern accent. During World War I most German Language newspapers shut down in Oklahoma and cultural assimilation was much faster and more forced in these groups who would have been more culturally different than the midwestern settlers.
I would expect a person with roots in Woodward who has a German last name and whose family came from Nebraska to grow wheat would be less likely to describe themselves as a Southerner than someone from Wynnewood with an English last name and who knows about their great-great-grandfather who fought at Vicksburg who came to Oklahoma to grow cotton.
Tangible evidence of all of this can be seen in almost any place you look. Voter patterns and political information from the 20th century reflect a Democrat and southern-oriented Oklahoma. Drive down and see that the biggest church in town is most likely the First Baptist Church. Southern plants like magnolia trees, crepe myrtles, and live oak trees are grown all around. This is no longer true of the younger generation, but talk to people in small towns and you'll hear a southern accent. Your county or town is probably named after a railroad figure, Southern politician, or a place in Alabama or Mississippi. Listen to the music made in Oklahoma and it's most likely country music. Go to the state capitol and see the flag poles that now only fly the Oklahoma flag because it's no longer politically correct to fly the Confederate flag on one of the poles. The list goes on a mile.
There are certainly many things that I do not consider positive about Oklahoma's history (racism is the most prime example), but to ignore these things because they are unpleasant is wrong. Oklahoma being southern doesn't mean it is backwards or flawed; it just means it's southern.
Bravo StudyingOkie! A barrel-full of reps to you. Every person under about 50 years of age, especially our young adults/youth should have to read this and reflect on the implications of our Great State's history.
Your assertion that many of the German families took on more of a Southern bent absolutely rings true personally in my family's history. I'm part Native (Creek/Choctaw from Mississippi) but the Anglo portions of my family were from Georgia and North Carolina with the exception of my father's mother. My ol' daddy's momma came to Oklahoma via Kansas (and we believe from Illinois before that) and there's no way it can be argued that Kansas and especially Illinois are not Midwestern through and through. My grandma and her family of origin, although their orientation was German Midwestern, definitely took on more of a Southern bent, settled in areas around Tulsa proper. In fact, I remember my grandma (ages ago, hard to think about now, really) having a very thick Southern accent, almost "drawly" and aristocratic (although they were "dirt floor poor"!) compared to the classic Okie twang that many of us still speak today. And yet, given the other Midwesterners who had settled Oklahoma, I'm guessing that, in the main, my grandma's and her family's shift from Midwestern to Southern/Okie was not too different than many of the other Midwesterners who flocked to Oklahoma Territory via the Runs.
Suggestion: Contact The Oklahoman and the Tulsa World and see if they would be interested running portions of your salient essay. Others need to know.
EDIT:
Now that I think about it, you probably need to forward your essay on to every school/history teacher (elementary, middle, high-school and the universities!) in Oklahoma. Ha!
Last edited by Bass&Catfish2008; 07-26-2014 at 10:14 AM..
That isn't what this data means. To my knowledge, Oklahoma was settled more by southerners than by people from the midwest.
Don't disagree. Generally the northerners settled the northern and most particularly the northwestern part of the state along with much of the northern part of the original land run. Johnny Special's "claim" that 90% of the land runners were southern is completely false. It might be true of the parts of Oklahoma that were settled by lottery
Quote:
This data shows that there is a significantly lower percentage of people with German ancestry in Oklahoma than in any of the midwestern states, and that Oklahoma being shaded the same as them is misleading. This data also shows that Oklahoma has a higher than average prevalence of people claiming American ancestry, which is unique to the southern states.
Again, Oklahoma has MORE people of German and eastern European ancestry than the southern states. and again, these people are concentrated in the northern/northwestern part of the state in terms of the traditional settlement.
Quote:
The reason ethnicity and origin of Oklahoma's settlers is important to the "southern vs midwestern" debate is that the people who moved to Oklahoma took their cultures with them. Plainly and simply, both the Midwest and the South are cultural regions more than topographic regions. Oklahoma has more land on the Great Plains than mountain land or swamp land or forested land, and so it's one of the Plains states. But culturally, Oklahoma has more southern culture than any other culture because it contains more southerners, and therefore is part of the South
.
The areas that are located in the great plains is where the non southerners settled and resided. Mostly the northwestern quadrant of the state.
Quote:
Cultural influence from the South came first with the 5 Civilized Tribes being forced to settle here. Many of the Indians had already adopted southern culture, language, lifestyle, were educated southern schools, and held slaves. When they moved to Oklahoma (back then it was unorganized territory), they brought this with them. By the time the Civil War rolled around all 5 tribes had signed treaties with the Confederacy and broken their treaties with the U.S. Government. U.S. troops in Oklahoma forts withdrew to defend Kansas (which had just become part of the Union), and rebel troops took possession of the forts guarding Oklahoma. The tribes even sent representatives to Richmond to the Confederate Congress (which they didn't have before in the U.S. Congress). There were some Indians (like the Cherokees) who didn't fight the U.S. Government and did fight their own tribesmen, but this was not a majority. The tribes, and Choctaws in particular, were strongly tied to the South economically. Without the South they would have no outlet for their cotton and corn, which was shipped down river to New Orleans. Oklahoma was controlled by Confederate infantry from elsewhere in the South until things went bad for the Confederacy and they needed to move the troops to guard important trade posts and cities in Texas and Arkansas. This left mostly Confederate Indians like Stand Watie to fight here. Union troops took back land in the northeastern part of Oklahoma, but couldn't stop the Confederate Indians from raiding their supply lines until 1865 when Stand Watie was the last Confederate General to surrender.
The war itself decimated the farms and villages of the 5 Civilized Tribes. They, like their counterparts in the rest of the former Confederacy, were ruined financially and physically. The U.S. Government renegotiated their treaties with the tribes in 1866 and that's when slavery was abolished in Oklahoma, and the freedmen had to be enrolled in each tribe. The Government took the western half of the territory to resettle plains tribes into it. These Reconstruction treaties were the first time the term Oklahoma was officially used.
All I will say about this history section is this: The Chickasaws, and Choctaws were with the south. The other tribes were split. The union/neutral supporter leaders were in the antelope hills in a summit with plains tribes about what to do. Albert Pike of the confederacy came in while they were gone and got treaties signed with the southern supporters. Creek chief Opathlyahola took the northern Indian supporters (Creeks, Seminoles, and some Choctaw and Chickasaw to Kansas. Later many joined the union forces to take back the forts in Indian territory. The Cherokee were split between the Ross faction and the Watie/Boudinot factions which had been a split since relocation. The Ross faction lost power early but the Cherokee literally switched sides as war tilted to the union.The PIN indians were loyal to the union throughout the war. John Drew's regiment switched sides. The Cherokee revoked the treaty mid war resulting in Watie burning down the Cherokee capitol building.
Slavery was now illegal in Indian Territory, but there was still labor needed. Like the rest of the South, the practice known as sharecropping attracted impoverished people to do cheap farm work for land owners, who were still Indians. In the decades after the Civil War and before Oklahoma was divided into Indian Territory and Oklahoma Territory, thousands of white southerners and freedmen worked the cotton fields owned by Indians. This was everywhere in the eastern part of Oklahoma. It was illegal for anyone but members of the tribes to own land in the Indian Territory, but Indians would sell their land to whoever could buy it. There was virtually no migration into Oklahoma at this time except from white southerners escaping Reconstruction.
True
Quote:
Greer County, Texas (or Jackson, Greer, Harmon, and part of Beckham counties, Oklahoma) was designated by the state of Texas to be settled by Confederate veterans. Arguably this area was part of Texas when it seceded from the Union, but was later considered to have been a part of the Indian Territory. Either way, white southerners settled this area before the land runs and paid taxes to the state of Texas.
True
Quote:
Northern politicians pushed for the western portion of Indian Territory to be opened for settlement. In the 1866 treaties with the tribes they had basically confiscated the western half of Indian Territory and there was no permanent settlement there. People like the Boomers, led by Payne, would go into this territory and start settling. They would be thrown out each time, but eventually the territory was opened for settlement. By this time most of Texas, Kansas, and the other states with open, farmable land had already been settled.
Payne and the original "Boomer" movement were almost all northerners, mostly from the plains states.
Quote:
The famous land runs occurred in the northwestern, north-central, and central portions of Oklahoma in 1889. Trains from Arkansas City, Kansas and Caldwell, Kansas brought people from the midwest into Oklahoma as far as Guthrie. Purcell in the Indian Territory was a staging point for people from the South (and the Indian Territory) to access the Oklahoma City area by train. Towns were established overnight and the first non-southern, permanent settlement began in Oklahoma. The land runs weren't clean or fair; some people died and others discovered that "Sooners" had already staked claims on the land. The next year Oklahoma Territory was officially formed.
Most of the northern part of the original land run settled by northerners. Southern part, by southerners. It would seem silly for a Texan for instance to go all the way to Ark City to make the run, or a Kansan to go down to Purcell.
Quote:
By all accounts the majority of the land run settlers were in fact from the midwest. There are well-known Czech communities like Yukon and Prague, but the actual amount of European-born settlers was insignificant (the 1910 census shows that less than 10% of Oklahomans were European-born or had European-born parents).There were southerners in the land runs who settled the areas closest to their starting point, which was around Oklahoma City and Cleveland County. A Georgia southerner founded the Daily Oklahoman in 1889 in Oklahoma City, and it was known for being a pro-Democrat, pro-Jim Crow newspaper.
Agree with this, however, the Gaylord family owned the Daily Oklahoman for virtually all of it's existence. They were from Kansas/Colorado.
Quote:
Since the land runs were not the ideal way to settle the territory, the U.S. Government decided to change the
format from land run to land lottery, and the southern portion of Oklahoma Territory was settled by people who were lucky enough to win the land lottery. These people weren't from the midwest, but from the South; mostly Texans. Basically in what was Oklahoma Territory, Northerners settled the parts close to Kansas, and Southerners settled the parts close to Texas. To this day the North-South cultural division can be seen simply by looking at a map of voter registration by county. Republicans represented the North, and therefore are the majority in the Northwestern part of the state, but in the Southwestern, Southeastern, and Northeastern parts of Oklahoma Democrats (representing the South) still form the majority. Numerous newspapers in the southern parts of the state have or had Democrat in the title of the paper. Today the OKC and Tulsa metros have majority Republican voters, but at least in Oklahoma County this was not the case until 2002.
Excellent points. The best illustration of this is the 1964 presidential election. Johnson won the whole state Except the northwest quadrant which was solid for Goldwater. (Kay county, Washington county and parts of Tulsa went for Goldwater as well)
Quote:
In 1890 the Panhandle and its residents were made part of Oklahoma Territory. There were not a lot of people in this area. In 1896 Greer County was added to the territory by the Supreme Court.
The panhandle is fascinating because it is literally a mix of people who have roots in the south
Quote:
Of course in 1907 the two territories were combined into the State of Oklahoma. Migration into Oklahoma continued beyond statehood, but not much. Until the Great Depression people still migrated into Oklahoma; more southerners flocked to the eastern part of the state and midwesterners flocked to the northern part of the state. Tulsa, Oklahoma City, and Seminole County boomed during this period, mostly due to oil and not agriculture.
Oklahoma grew significantly between statehood and the depression/dust bowl due to the original oil exploration which brought midwestern and eastern oilmen to Tulsa and were attempting to develope Tulsa as an elitist "midwestern" city.
The population of Oklahoma Territory may have been half midwesterners and half southerners, or maybe even slightly favoring one group, but when you factor in the addition of the Indian Territory to this (with its population of white southerners, freedmen, and Indians), the balance at statehood easily favors people from the South. The territories had comparable populations in 1907.
True, and is the main reason there is no state of "Sequoyah". The Republicans did not want to admit two democratic states into the union.
Quote:
The reason Southern Baptists dominate Oklahoma and that you can hear the Southern accent even in places like Enid and Guymon can be explained by cultural assimilation. When people from disparate backgrounds all converged on Oklahoma Territory, they had to interact with one another and form communities and economic opportunities. This explains the Southern accent in people who live in rural northwestern Oklahoma. In the communities sandwiched between the panhandle and the Kansas border, I wouldn't expect to hear a southern accent, but in Kingfisher, Stillwater, and other communities where there would have been midwesterners and southerners in close proximity, they certainly would pick up each other's dialect.
Agreed, however there are a lot of people in NW Oklahoma who DON'T have a southern accent. This is particularly notable among the Mennonites and the Czech .
Quote:
The European immigrant community would have felt a greater pressure to adopt Southern Baptist religion and the Southern accent. During World War I most German Language newspapers shut down in Oklahoma and cultural assimilation was much faster and more forced in these groups who would have been more culturally different than the midwestern settlers.
One need look no further than the German/Russian Mennonite community which had to change it's name from "Korn" to "Corn" during the war.
Quote:
I would expect a person with roots in Woodward who has a German last name and whose family came from Nebraska to grow wheat would be less likely to describe themselves as a Southerner than someone from Wynnewood with an English last name and who knows about their great-great-grandfather who fought at Vicksburg who came to Oklahoma to grow cotton.
I actually asked a person of German decent who lives in Woodward this VERY question. She said she absolutely DID NOT consider herself or the town of Woodward to be "southern". Ironically, one of Woodward's most famous citizens was Temple Houston. Son of Sam Houston. About as southern as you can get.
Quote:
Tangible evidence of all of this can be seen in almost any place you look. Voter patterns and political information from the 20th century reflect a Democrat and southern-oriented Oklahoma. Drive down and see that the biggest church in town is most likely the First Baptist Church. Southern plants like magnolia trees, crepe myrtles, and live oak trees are grown all around. This is no longer true of the younger generation, but talk to people in small towns and you'll hear a southern accent. Your county or town is probably named after a railroad figure, Southern politician, or a place in Alabama or Mississippi. Listen to the music made in Oklahoma and it's most likely country music. Go to the state capitol and see the flag poles that now only fly the Oklahoma flag because it's no longer politically correct to fly the Confederate flag on one of the poles. The list goes on a mile.
IMO the only thing that differentiates SE Oklahoma from the deep south is that there aren't that many African American residents as in the deep south. Although the Red River valley (Idabel, Broken Bow, Hugo could be the deep south). NE Oklahoma is what I like to call the "Ozark Highland" south with the Indian influence thrown in. Not very many blacks, and more northerners than the deep south. Much more like Appalachia in terms of the dynamics of the white people.
.
Enjoyed reading your take. I still think that while Oklahoma is southern in totality it is the least southern of the southern states (unless you count Maryland, Missouri, or W. Virginia which I don't). Kentucky would be the only competitor.
It does however, bother me, that people hold such a simplistic view of the dynamics of the tribes during the Civil War.
Last edited by eddie gein; 07-27-2014 at 11:17 AM..
Nice post Studying Okie. You data backs up what I have been saying all along.
Oklahoma has been absorbed by the old southern states simply due to the fact that Oklahoma was the number one destination for southerners to relocate after reconstruction.
Some sources claim that almost 90% of land runners were from former confederate states.
I think the best way to define the south is dialect and religious affiliation.
Southern Dialect
Religious affiliation
The only part of your post that I disagree with is the Oklahoma actually has very little land that is considered part of the great plains. Most of Oklahoma is situated on the cross timbers and Interior Highlands.
This is an actual outline of satellite imagery.
Thanks for reading! I would be interested to know where that information about the land runners came from; most things I've read about it have been kind of wishy-washy about who the settlers were and try to frame the settlers as being from all over the world.
As far as Great Plains vs just plains, I have not really seen a definitive map of what the Great Plains consists of. I think the plains of Oklahoma begin west of the Cross Timbers, but by that map that area wouldn't be considered "Great Plains".
Bravo StudyingOkie! A barrel-full of reps to you. Every person under about 50 years of age, especially our young adults/youth should have to read this and reflect on the implications of our Great State's history.
Your assertion that many of the German families took on more of a Southern bent absolutely rings true personally in my family's history. I'm part Native (Creek/Choctaw from Mississippi) but the Anglo portions of my family were from Georgia and North Carolina with the exception of my father's mother. My ol' daddy's momma came to Oklahoma via Kansas (and we believe from Illinois before that) and there's no way it can be argued that Kansas and especially Illinois are not Midwestern through and through. My grandma and her family of origin, although their orientation was German Midwestern, definitely took on more of a Southern bent, settled in areas around Tulsa proper. In fact, I remember my grandma (ages ago, hard to think about now, really) having a very thick Southern accent, almost "drawly" and aristocratic (although they were "dirt floor poor"!) compared to the classic Okie twang that many of us still speak today. And yet, given the other Midwesterners who had settled Oklahoma, I'm guessing that, in the main, my grandma's and her family's shift from Midwestern to Southern/Okie was not too different than many of the other Midwesterners who flocked to Oklahoma Territory via the Runs.
Suggestion: Contact The Oklahoman and the Tulsa World and see if they would be interested running portions of your salient essay. Others need to know.
EDIT:
Now that I think about it, you probably need to forward your essay on to every school/history teacher (elementary, middle, high-school and the universities!) in Oklahoma. Ha!
Thanks for the kind words!
Family histories like yours are wonderful. My family came here from the South (Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee, Texas, etc.) and my Grandparents definitely had the southern drawl. That accent is sadly disappearing from all parts of the South.
I would be thrilled if I could get that into a newspaper! The Tulsa World commonly refers to Oklahoma as part of the Midwest and I've seen the Oklahoman refer to us as the Southwest. I noticed that the (Oklahoma City) News 9 sports reporters call themselves "the Midwest Sports Desk".
There's a lot more that could be added to my post. Maybe we should just publish this thread!
Enjoyed reading your take. I still think that while Oklahoma is southern in totality it is the least southern of the southern states (unless you count Maryland, Missouri, or W. Virginia which I don't). Kentucky would be the only competitor.
It does however, bother me, that people hold such a simplistic view of the dynamics of the tribes during the Civil War.
I read your response to my map post incorrectly. I read it that you meant to say the Northern Plains states sent more settlers to Oklahoma than did the South, as opposed to what you actually meant.
Thanks for reading my inordinately long post and for the interesting links! I thought the Civil War section was pretty fair though. Every state in the South could make the argument that it sent troops to fight for the Union, but I think the Indian Territory was firmly part of the Confederacy; even more than Kentucky and Missouri (because of who controlled them, and that's not to say that Kentucky is less Southern).
I am pretty ignorant on the history of the 5 Civilized Tribes, so I when I find information about their roles in the Civil War I pretty much look for numbers. I've seen many conflicting sources and maps about that issue.
Is it true that Mennonites are very much like the Amish? I don't know very much about either, but it would make sense to me that closed communities like that wouldn't have adopted a Southern accent.
I read your response to my map post incorrectly. I read it that you meant to say the Northern Plains states sent more settlers to Oklahoma than did the South, as opposed to what you actually meant.
Thanks for reading my inordinately long post and for the interesting links! I thought the Civil War section was pretty fair though. Every state in the South could make the argument that it sent troops to fight for the Union, but I think the Indian Territory was firmly part of the Confederacy; even more than Kentucky and Missouri (because of who controlled them, and that's not to say that Kentucky is less Southern).
I am pretty ignorant on the history of the 5 Civilized Tribes, so I when I find information about their roles in the Civil War I pretty much look for numbers. I've seen many conflicting sources and maps about that issue.
Is it true that Mennonites are very much like the Amish? I don't know very much about either, but it would make sense to me that closed communities like that wouldn't have adopted a Southern accent.
As far as the indians, you are correct that they would be confederate only in that there was little northern support among the Choctaw and Chickasaw. The other three were pretty much split down the middle. The Cherokee story is truly amazing. The full bloods were basically unionists and the mixed bloods were confederate. Each side had power over the tribe at various points during the war.
So I would disagree with you on your statement that Indian Territory was firmly a part of the confederacy.
In the end it is said the there were more civilian losses in the civil war among the residents of Indian territory than in any state north or south. This was entirely due to the infighting among the Creeks, Cherokee and Seminole.
Again, if you read the links I attached it would give a better picture of what actually went on during that time.
The war was basically an extension among the Creeks and Cherokee from their disagreements during the time of removal.
As far as the Mennonites, I where I currently live they are pretty thick and no, they don't have southern accents by an stretch. And yes, they are similar to the Amish.
I have a hard time considering Oklahoma to be a southern state. Even with the large Baptist influence, I tend to think of Oklahoma as being more western than anything.
As far as the indians, you are correct that they would be confederate only in that there was little northern support among the Choctaw and Chickasaw. The other three were pretty much split down the middle. The Cherokee story is truly amazing. The full bloods were basically unionists and the mixed bloods were confederate. Each side had power over the tribe at various points during the war.
So I would disagree with you on your statement that Indian Territory was firmly a part of the confederacy.
In the end it is said the there were more civilian losses in the civil war among the residents of Indian territory than in any state north or south. This was entirely due to the infighting among the Creeks, Cherokee and Seminole.
Again, if you read the links I attached it would give a better picture of what actually went on during that time.
The war was basically an extension among the Creeks and Cherokee from their disagreements during the time of removal.
As far as the Mennonites, I where I currently live they are pretty thick and no, they don't have southern accents by an stretch. And yes, they are similar to the Amish.
I do remember reading about the mixed-blood Indians being in favor of the Confederacy. I will read more about the roles of those three tribes. Thanks for those links!
Also, I've seen it posted many times about Tulsa's northern influence, but all I know about that is that the oil barons who lived there cared a lot about the aesthetic element of the city. I'm sure Tulsa has more economic connections to Kansas and Missouri than Oklahoma City does, but what does that mean in terms of its culture?
I do remember reading about the mixed-blood Indians being in favor of the Confederacy. I will read more about the roles of those three tribes. Thanks for those links!
Also, I've seen it posted many times about Tulsa's northern influence, but all I know about that is that the oil barons who lived there cared a lot about the aesthetic element of the city. I'm sure Tulsa has more economic connections to Kansas and Missouri than Oklahoma City does, but what does that mean in terms of its culture?
The deal with Tulsa is that when the Glen Pool opened it was on the south/southwest side of the Arkansas River. The oil barons wanted to be close to the oil field but did not want to be associated with the riff raff of the boomtown.
Their solution was to develop Tulsa which was across the river from all the activity. Tulsa was a small burg of a couple of thousand but was not full of oil workers. The barons from the east and the midwest wanted Tulsa to be sophisticated, so they set about culturing it. The aesthetics you mentioned, opera, theater, grand old homes. The midwest/eastern culture aspect of Tulsa is more of a legacy than anything these days.
However, it does exist and it does set it apart somewhat from OKC which was a land run town/cow town/meat packing town when Tulsa was hoity toity.
And on the Indian thing. After re reading my post in response to your previous post. I want to rephrase that you are correct in that the Tribes as a whole were confederate leaning especially after Opothlyahola fled to Kansas, but the situation was very complex.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Every person under about 50 years of age, especially our young adults/youth should have to read this and reflect on the implications of our Great State's history.
) compared to the classic Okie twang that many of us still speak today. And yet, given the other Midwesterners who had settled Oklahoma, I'm guessing that, in the main, my grandma's and her family's shift from Midwestern to Southern/Okie was not too different than many of the other Midwesterners who flocked to Oklahoma Territory via the Runs.
