[linicx]

It's funny that food is mentioned. There is a little place in Grove called Tomcat Corner. It's a small convenient where store visitors find gas and potato chips and trinkets. But they also find smoked-on-premises BBQ beef, pork, and chicken sold by the piece, sandwich, side, rack or whole. I'm not a particular fan of barbecue per se, but I've eating their smoked meat for 35 years, and I've never been disappointed.

Most of the cowboys I know whould never be caught eating pork. TC's pork is generally more tender and more juicy than the beef. In my opinion one of the drawbacks to beef in Oklahoma is it very difficult to find cornfed Angus. It is getting to a point I can't find good beef anywhere in the U.S unless I know a rancher who raises one or two head for himself and feeds corn the last 90 days in his feed lot.

I remember when I couldn't find catfish in NE OK, but I can today in Grove at Catfish John's. It's good! Time takes time to pass; sometimes it's years before change comes, but come it does.

[Johnhw2]

Fortune magazine has a an article dividing parts of the country into clusters with a capital city for each, the clusters are created based upon the economic ties between areas in a cluster. They also put Texas in three clusters and Houston as well as Dallas were capitals of 2 of these clusters. Oklahoma was in the Plains cluster that included most of Texas and has Dallas as a capital. This area includes all of Oklahoma as well as most of the mid-west excluding Chicago and the area near the great lakes. So I say Oklahoma is mid-western plains state by economic connection.

[Jammie]

Originally Posted by e_cuyler

A significant number of the Cherokee [among other tribes] fought for the South and operated out of Oklahoma, so it is not entirely true to say Oklahoma or Indian territory was not part of the Civil War. It's not as big a part of our history as it is in the Deep South, but it's there.

Still, I agree that in the Eastern part of the state in particular, the Indian influence is a big part of the culture, and is one of the things that does make the state somewhat unique.

The Cherokee were torn between the North and the South and abandoned by both sides. The South forced many to fight for them, putting them on the front lines and sacrificing the Cherokee before themselves, mainly dragging them into battle in Missouri. They weren't willing supporters of either side.

Many Cherokee slipped into Kansas to avoid fighting for the South. It only makes sense that a Native American would be opposed to slavery, wouldn't it? Unfortunately, the North had promised to help the Cherokee through the cold winters and yet, very little aid ever came and many starved or froze to death.

Not much that either side can be proud of doing to an entire group of people, is it?

[e_cuyler]

I think that's true...it's interesting to note that from what I've seen as a Cherokee growing up in the area that I don't really see a lot of Indian people making a big deal out of family Civil War history the way many families do in the Deep South. It seems like it's viewed more as a painful time of division instead of something to be glorified.

Of course, many wealthy Cherokee did own slaves, which resulted in the Freedman controversy that is still playing out.

[Rubi3]

Officially, Oklahoma is a southwestern state and I agree with that designation.

[Goodpasture]

Originally Posted by Jammie

The Cherokee were torn between the North and the South

The battle lines were drawn more along the clan lines with the Boudinot/Watie faction on the south and the Ross/Ridge faction on the north.

Originally Posted by Jammie

The South forced many to fight for them, putting them on the front lines and sacrificing the Cherokee before themselves, mainly dragging them into battle in Missouri. They weren't willing supporters of either side.

the majority of Cherokee were supporters of the south. Not only had the North forced the relocation into Oklahoma, the wealthy Cherokee were plantation and slave owners, indistinguishable to their anglo neighbors.

Originally Posted by Jammie

It only makes sense that a Native American would be opposed to slavery, wouldn't it?

That statement is one of irrefutable absurdity. Virtually all the civilized tribes had slaves. Apache would raid into Mexico and bring back captured boys and girls and kept them as slaves. Quanah Parker's mother (Cynthia Ann Parker) was captured in Texas and kept as a slave for years before she became the wife of Nocona, Quanah's father.

Nancy Ward (Nanye'hi) was one of the first Cherokee to own slaves which she captured during the Dreek Wars around 1805......well before the civil war. John Ross, principle chief during relocation, owned at least 20 slaves.

For what it's worth, General Robert E. Lee surrendered to General U. S. Grant at Appomattox Court House on April 9, 1865. The last Confederate general in the field to surrender was Brigadier General Stand Watie, who did not lay down his weapons until June 23, 1865. Stand Watie was a member of the Cherokee Nation. He commanded the First Indian Brigade of the Confederate Army of the Trans-Mississippi. When Stand Watie took for himself the status of being the last Confederate general to surrender, he claimed the historical significance of the West and of Indians in the American Civil War.

To say that the Cherokee were coerced or forced to fight is patently absurd.

[Magen004]

Really, even Florida as well, are not the declares most likely to first come to thoughts when grits are described. However, simultaneously both are aspect of the grits belt according to a Pillsbury market study.

[objuan]

Southern and Midwestern are both generally inappropriate for Oklahoma. It fits best into the Southwestern category, along with Texas and the states farther west. Texas and Oklahoma have many characteristics of the classic south, related to historical settlement patterns, but the cultural and economic patterns are very much southwestern.

[johnspecial]

Stop fighting it guys. Oklahoma is a southern state, and no matter how badly you want it to be so, it will never be midwestern or part of the desert southwest.

[tkx7]

Originally Posted by johnspecial

Stop fighting it guys. Oklahoma is a southern state, and no matter how badly you want it to be so, it will never be midwestern or part of the desert southwest.

I've never considered Oklahoma part of the south nor would I- it's more just middle America/crossroads than anything. It was originally an Indian terroritory if you want to identify it from a historical and cultural perspective.