[Foxworthy5]

Why is there such a phase? True or Not?

[westernkansas]

true

[Foxworthy5]

So if there is such then why do we let local governments get by with it. Why should citizens need to spend their life savings to get justice?

[Foxworthy5]

This post has been up for awhile. I'm surprised, but perhaps I shouldn't be, at how little interest there is in this subject. Most of you will never be faced with a challenge from your municipal government so perhaps it's understandable. Fact is it can happen to any citizen(s) as my neighbors and I found out. Our current city administration rescinded a fully documented agreement, from a previous city administration, over a plat for a new development. It plainly appears that the city is in violation of at least two of their own statutes. It seems that they feel they can simply pick and choose what they want to honor or laws they want to enforce.

As with most disputes the next step is the justice system which we quickly found out requires resources, namely money for legal help. That's where, for most ordinary citizens, the buck stops. Legal resources are expensive.

Bottom line is why should average citizens be required to spend their own hard earned money to get legal action simply for lack of resources. Simply put, when fear of legal action is lost this is a recipe for public corruption. It doesn't take an attorney to understand that this becomes a David vs Goliath scenario. We will never discourage this activity until these cases can be adjudicated.

[Foxworthy5]

Last year I had a debate with some of the Perl District members on FB. In the end it sounds like they eventually “rolled over” for the city. I'm not surprised. But, when a large, organized group such as the Perl District Association gives up, how does that affect smaller groups? Smaller groups that need the confidence to pursue similar justice?

As I understand it, the original Perl District Plan, put simply, the City of Tulsa apparently decided to violate. It's not unusual when interlopers enter the scene, in the name of so-called progress, to become controversial. It goes without saying that development can have a major impact on citizens residing in the potentially affected area. Citizens have a vested interest in having their voices and concerns aired. The manner in which a jurisdiction handles this controversy can lead to disastrous results for citizens, as it did in our case in Bixby. There's nothing wrong with a municipality having flexibility in land use and zoning. Conversely, when it decides to violate a plan that has deeply involved citizens' input and participation, that must be considered in a different light.

Is it any wonder why average citizens view government with distrust. Good governance requires citizens participation but when these agreements, plans, ect. are violated, it disenfranchises and diminishes the desire by ordinary citizens to become participants. It reduces the confidence that their participation will be meaningful and fruitful. What sense does it make for a plan, developed through significant citizens participation, to be invalidated?

Part of the problem lies in the fact that most citizens are not very literate when it pertains to government operations. It's not our expertise. If it was we would all be running for city council seats or part of government. And why should we? Isn't that why we elect representatives? The point I'm trying to express here is that average citizen, especially in smaller jurisdictions, often approach their local government with an innocence and blind trust that their local government will “do the right thing” for them, making allowance for their lack of experience. These situations lead to naive and defenseless citizens against city officials that want to play politics and are less then forth coming about their real agenda. Lobbyists and big money lurking around the corner.

When cities violate their trust with the citizens, citizens need to be empowered. It's been my experience that too often there's no where to turn except expensive attorney's, often out of reach for average income folks. No support groups, no citizens advocates to advise before or after, no knowledge base ..... nothing! The Internet does little to help. There's no Wikipedia for this! We like to think that we live in a sophisticated, so-called modern society. A place in which help is just around the corner. Support to help solve nearly every problem. But, when it comes to dealing with city hall, the cold, hard reality tells us otherwise. It reinforces the old notion that “you can't fight city hall”. A phrase I despise and should no longer be part of our vernacular, but unfortunately it is alive and well. The residents on my street, in Bixby, can attest to that! That needs to change! We need to “level the playing field” between citizens and their municipal governments. Governments who like to pursue total dominance over the citizens. A notion I hope most of us find repulsive!

[Rubi3]

Originally Posted by Foxworthy5

<snipped>

Part of the problem lies in the fact that most citizens are not very literate when it pertains to government operations. It's not our expertise. If it was we would all be running for city council seats or part of government. And why should we? Isn't that why we elect representatives? The point I'm trying to express here is that average citizen, especially in smaller jurisdictions, often approach their local government with an innocence and blind trust that their local government will “do the right thing” for them, making allowance for their lack of experience. These situations lead to naive and defenseless citizens against city officials that want to play politics and are less then forth coming about their real agenda. Lobbyists and big money lurking around the corner.

When cities violate their trust with the citizens, citizens need to be empowered. It's been my experience that too often there's no where to turn except expensive attorney's, often out of reach for average income folks. No support groups, no citizens advocates to advise before or after, no knowledge base ..... nothing! The Internet does little to help. There's no Wikipedia for this! We like to think that we live in a sophisticated, so-called modern society. A place in which help is just around the corner. Support to help solve nearly every problem. But, when it comes to dealing with city hall, the cold, hard reality tells us otherwise. It reinforces the old notion that “you can't fight city hall”. A phrase I despise and should no longer be part of our vernacular, but unfortunately it is alive and well. The residents on my street, in Bixby, can attest to that! That needs to change! We need to “level the playing field” between citizens and their municipal governments. Governments who like to pursue total dominance over the citizens. A notion I hope most of us find repulsive!

Since there's nothing much else for me to be doing at the moment... nothing I want to be doing is really what I mean, I'll comment that apparently no one else is repulsed by the dilemma you've outlined. You state part of the problem and that's probably part of the problem. lol I'm reading your post and it's written in first person, then in same paragraph switched to second person. You say what you think, then start saying what everyone else should be thinking when you begin saying we. At least you don't say you FEEL everyone should do this or that. I suspect "can't fight city hall," will be around for the long haul.

[underwood1976]

You cant beat the municpil court either, they gave me a fine of 750.00 dollars for giving a dog away in lawton oklahoma, they said i did'nt have breeders licences!

[Foxworthy5]

Originally Posted by Rubi3

Since there's nothing much else for me to be doing at the moment... nothing I want to be doing is really what I mean, I'll comment that apparently no one else is repulsed by the dilemma you've outlined. You state part of the problem and that's probably part of the problem. lol I'm reading your post and it's written in first person, then in same paragraph switched to second person. You say what you think, then start saying what everyone else should be thinking when you begin saying we. At least you don't say you FEEL everyone should do this or that. I suspect "can't fight city hall," will be around for the long haul.

P { margin-bottom: 0.08in; } I'm not quite sure what your trying to convey here. It's hard for anyone to truly understand the problem unless your a victim of such, and I don't fault you for that. The fact that a municipality can reverse itself from a legal situation, will-nilly, is something you or I couldn't get by with. Having approved a plat, with the input of citizens, should never be changeable unless there's a very significant reason beyond satisfying some rich developer, which is what I believe happened in my case. I'm not talking about just me, this permanently affects many residences on this street. This should never be allowed to happen to any citizen(s).
Is it not true, one of the reasons for government is to protect it's citizens. That includes protection from unscrupulous development. As citizens of a municipality, what are we supposed to do when city leaders turn into adversaries? When they fail to take responsibilities for their actions.

[tinynot]

That expression I heard from my parents, so it has been around for awhile, and is still true today. There have a lot of instances of that and obvious to anyone who pays attention. Just recently a man was chased down and a previous deputy from an adjacent count got out with brass knuckles, a gun on his hip and a knife. The man who last year had two shoulder operations got his shoulder ripped again. However, he did manage to get the ex deputy down and beat the shot out of him. There were witnesses. Ex deputy had thrown the knuckles and left. An officer from my county found the knuckles. The ADA didn't file charges. They never put out a warrant for an arrest. It was because that ex deputy is to inherit a lot of money and his lawyers are fit to get a lot of that money. I could write a book about that court house

Seems the only way to get justice is get vigilante justice. Don't get caught.

[Rubi3]

Originally Posted by Foxworthy5

This post has been up for awhile. I'm surprised, but perhaps I shouldn't be, at how little interest there is in this subject.

<snipped>

You were also surprised in another thread where you thought others should be doing something you suggested and you didn't approve of the responses.