[bchris02]

I am not going to argue with you. Unless I 100% agree with you AS WELL AS close my mind and hate anybody with any opposing viewpoint, I am an evil, despicable, waste of flesh and might as well be picketing with a God Hates **** sign. Such as the way of America today.

For the record, I am not against gay marriage. If a vote happened today to legalize it I probably would vote for it. However, growing up in a strict fundamentalist Christian family I understand where the anti-gay marriage viewpoint comes from and realize you won't ever be able to force 100% of the population to support it. There will also be people who support gay marriage in a civil sense but still believe its sin (I myself fall in that category). Are they just as despicable as Phelps Roper or the guy who killed his three-year old son? You will probably say so, but what do you propose to do about it? Ban Christianity?

[dvxhd]

Originally Posted by bchris02

I am not going to argue with you. Unless I 100% agree with you AS WELL AS close my mind and hate anybody with any opposing viewpoint, I am an evil, despicable, waste of flesh and might as well be picketing with a God Hates **** sign. Such as the way of America today.

For the record, I am not against gay marriage. If a vote happened today to legalize it I probably would vote for it. However, growing up in a strict fundamentalist Christian family I understand where the anti-gay marriage viewpoint comes from and realize you won't ever be able to force 100% of the population to support it. There will also be people who support gay marriage in a civil sense but still believe its sin (I myself fall in that category). Are they just as despicable as Phelps Roper or the guy who killed his three-year old son? You will probably say so, but what do you propose to do about it? Ban Christianity?

What do I propose about it? Hmm... Well, we could start by questioning why so many Americans are quick to criticize theocratic governments in the Middle East, yet want a Christian theocracy in America. When non-Christian PACs, groups and/or individuals lobby the government to honor the First Amendment and not endorse Christianity, then Christians scream that they're being oppressed. Yet Christians seem to have no problem with persecuting and subduing groups they see as inferior. I said it in another thread and I'll say it again: remove Christmas as a federal (and all lower-level governments) holiday. The private sector should continue to operate as needed, and government buildings should remain open (though likely with minimal staff.) Sure, Oklahoma may not have a huge demand for it, but a number of cities would keep them busy (as there are large populations of non-Christians in many cities.) I also propose a task force through the IRS that would investigate all tax-exempt churches, synagogues, temples, etc. that give money to political causes, motivate their congregations to take action in political causes, and act in any other way as a PAC instead of a house of worship. The task force would then fine the establishment heavily, and collect back taxes. Upon a second violation, the congregation would be shut down. This was a country founded on the principles of the Enlightenment... so let's take a cue from them and advance our nation, not revert it to the Dark Ages (or Golden Age of Christianity.)

And again, Christians would call that oppression without taking a long, hard look at what selfish barbarism they support that affects people other than them.

And what really annoys me is the fact that Christians have this loony belief that recognition of same-sex marriage means that they will have to marry someone of the same sex, or that their churches would have to perform them. All it would do is give the gay community the same marriage rights, and call me crazy, but I highly doubt gays would want to financially support a homophobic church with a wedding. And to answer your question: yes, I think people who oppose same-sex marriage are just as bad as Fred Phelps. Phelps is vocal about his beliefs, and what he is does is absolutely tasteless and despicable... however, he hasn't physically hurt anyone. Where do you think the father who killed a toddler got the ideas that his son growing up to be gay would be a bad thing? That's where the acidic hatemongering of churches comes in: you start by telling a bunch of gullible people your beliefs, and these easily-influenced people then leave with these ideas and live their lives "knowing" that gays/lesbians are bad people. Then all too often you get someone who's just a hair more insane than the rest and have an innocent gay/lesbian murdered.

I'm short on time as I have an engagement in about an hour, but I will be more than happy to share with you the blatant hypocrisy of Christianity when it comes to who you can hate and what you can do.

[rockyinyourradio]

Originally Posted by dvxhd

What do I propose about it? Hmm... Well, we could start by questioning why so many Americans are quick to criticize theocratic governments in the Middle East, yet want a Christian theocracy in America. <snipped>

I normally shy away when it comes to topics of this nature as I find it all too divisive which leads to alot of contentious bantering.. but I must say this.. dvxhd, I think you may have some deep rooted resentments against the Christian Church.. and perhaps God himself. I can surely understand why you feel the way you do as some people who call themselves "Christians" have not shown to be good examples. I for one have been hurt deeply by professing Christians but I refuse to let that get in the way of my love and devotion to a perfect God. The way I see it.. My job here on earth is to love thy neighbour as myself .. faults and all, and even if they don't believe like me. That means whether they are Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Muslim. Hindu or Agnostic .. and no matter what skin colour .. and no matter if they are gay or straight. I may not condone someone's lifestyle or stance on a certain issue, but I certainly won't judge and condemn them either. You see in the end.. we ALL will know (myself included) what was right or wrong. In the meantime.. I choose to embrace what we have in common and celebrate that! and accept the fact that we may still have differences that we should all accept.. and that means loving thy neighbour as thyself as the Holy Bible says... at least this is how I see it. Now I will say the first part of your post dvxhd is a little disconcerting, yet in the times we are coming in.. is to be expected. I think it's just a matter of time before your wish comes to pass. The Bible is clear about the coming persecution of Christians and I believe within a few short years, it will be more challenging to openly confess being a practicing Christian without some potential negative ramifications. The one issue I do agree with you on dvxhd are churches openly promoting political candidates. That should be of the decision of oneself without being coerced in a church.

So I hope you don't lump all Christians as a bunch of hate mongerers who have no room for any others who don't believe like them. Unfortunately though, there are a few, in every religious and non religious sects .. and political groups too.. both conservative and liberal. Such is the human spirit. My prayer is that somehow peace will have the upper hand.

One last note.. there is a Religion section to City Data.. it has some fascinating topics that what we're discussing would fit well over there. You'll be in good company dvxhd. I do appreciate your feedback on here regarding this topic and I can understand with why you have the issues you do. I just hope that you will find some empathy and forgiveness for those who call themselves Christians, whom have hurt you.

Be Blessed.

[dvxhd]

I'm not "angry at God" as that action would be about as useful as being angry at unicorns. What I'm angry about is the utter and blatant hypocrisy of the church, the influence of religion over people who aren't affiliated with that doctrine, and the power of the church over American government(s).

Same-sex marriage, abortion, physician-assisted suicide, legalized marijuana, selling booze on Sundays... whatever. It all boils down to one thing: if you don't agree with it, don't engage in it. Churches wouldn't have to perform weddings for same-sex couples, and Christians wouldn't have to marry someone of the same sex; Christian women don't have to have abortions; if you are terminal and would rather die a slow, painful, agonizing death rather than let a physician help you go painlessly, then so be it. It's annoying that people who want or need those services are denied them because the church can affect the government as I mentioned earlier.

What does Matthew 7:1 say again? I've seen some people who are in no position to take on a regressive agenda in the name of Christ. Ted Haggard is my favorite, and Pat Robertson has some knee-slapping quotes. Arizona State Senator Karen Johnson is humorous too. This is a woman who pushes an extreme anti-gay marriage agenda... yet has been married five times so far. I hate when Christians call others intolerant without realizing that it's a two-way street. I've seen Christians protest Pride parades and gay businesses... but the gay community didn't really do anything to warrant that. Unless a major event happens, gay groups don't really go picket church services. Abortion clinics don't exactly try to lobby the government to shut down churches. You get the point. If Christians don't want to be considered hatemongers, then they should take their own advice that they tritely say to the gay community: "just don't rub it in our faces." *On a personal note, that should include those annoying missionaries that disrupt my privacy and bother me in my own home.

Persecution of Christians won't happen in my lifetime... and at my age that's likely several decades from now. We will still have religion-based laws on the books and politicians who have to name drop Jesus on the campaign trail. I understand atheism and agnosticism are on the rise, which to me is a relief. I, for one, would prefer our society run on reason and understanding, not faith. A great example in modern times is Bush's religion-based block of stem-cell research, and Obama's subsequent allowance of it. In time, we will likely see great benefits to that research.

So yes, I do see Christians as hateful thugs, but that's what you've been putting into society. Refer to that earlier list to see what kind of atmosphere you're creating. But then again, the rising irreligious affiliation in this country (and in the Western world) is a direct result of the agenda your churches push, and the ease and availability of other information in modern times.

[StillwaterTownie]

Well, "live and let live" is one of the best words of advice I've ever heard.

[bchris02]

Originally Posted by StillwaterTownie

Well, "live and let live" is one of the best words of advice I've ever heard.

Agreed. I have known many atheists in real life, and most of them were live and let live types and didn't hate people of faith even though they themselves don't believe. People like the above poster are to atheism as Westboro is to Christianity..actually not quite. More like Pat Robertson and the late Jerry Falwell.

I don't think any other group in America can truthfully be compared to Westboro.

[dvxhd]

Originally Posted by bchris02

Agreed. I have known many atheists in real life, and most of them were live and let live types and didn't hate people of faith even though they themselves don't believe. People like the above poster are to atheism as Westboro is to Christianity..actually not quite. More like Pat Robertson and the late Jerry Falwell.

I don't think any other group in America can truthfully be compared to Westboro.

Live and let live is some advice you need to pass on to your congregations... they're the ones that could use it. I provided you plenty of examples as to why.

If you guys would just leave your beliefs in your lives and not try to force them on everyone, then I'd probably have a more favorable view of you. You could also stop hemorrhaging your adherents if your churches would become a little more, you know, Christ-like.

And what I've done is nothing close to what Westboro does. If I were to picket your grandmother's funeral with a sign reading, "What if grandma's in Hell?" then you could say so. No claim I made is anything near to what those other two evangelists have said either. And on that note, both of those men were quite successful... I wonder where they got that kind of money... Surely, if Christians didn't buy into that type of ideology, they wouldn't support them with donations, would they?

[bchris02]

Originally Posted by dvxhd

Live and let live is some advice you need to pass on to your congregations... they're the ones that could use it. I provided you plenty of examples as to why.

If you guys would just leave your beliefs in your lives and not try to force them on everyone, then I'd probably have a more favorable view of you. You could also stop hemorrhaging your adherents if your churches would become a little more, you know, Christ-like.

And what I've done is nothing close to what Westboro does. If I were to picket your grandmother's funeral with a sign reading, "What if grandma's in Hell?" then you could say so. No claim I made is anything near to what those other two evangelists have said either. And on that note, both of those men were quite successful... I wonder where they got that kind of money... Surely, if Christians didn't buy into that type of ideology, they wouldn't support them with donations, would they?

Westboro makes their money by suing people they believe trample on their First Amendment rights. Phelps Roper is a licensed attorney, and in fact all but four in the family are lawyers. That's how they make their funds, not by Christians donating to them.

[debbie at bouontiful]

[quote=rockyinyourradio;27686550]I normally shy away when it comes to topics of this nature as I find it all too divisive which leads to alot of contentious bantering.


I feel the same way you do on your entire quote rodyinyourradio.

[bchris02]

Also, dvxhd, you should actually adore the Westboro Baptist Church. Without them, who would you have as an extreme caricature to use to stereotype all Christians? Pastor Worley and other nuts are much less widely known outside of gay rights circles. WBC has done more to help gay rights and demonize people of faith than any gay rights or atheist organization could ever dream of.