[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by Goodpasture

So why am I so frequently irritated when some teen aged waitress or clerk calls this 60 year old male "you guys"?

This sorta reminds me of a funny (or at least I thought) story about when my kids were relocated to Kansas. To make it short as to personal details, their mother was originally from Kansas, but we met and married when she moved to Texas back in the mid-80's. So our kids were born and raised in Texas. When we divorced, she took the kids back to her home state (violating an agreement, but that is a different and irrelevent tale). Anyway, they are both now grown, but at the time, both were still in elementary school and were so enrolled up there.

Their mother and I at least remained good friends so far as the kids and visitation went, so she called me one day to tell a story which she thought (correctly) I would appreciate. It went like this:

My daughter was in the third grade at the time and on her first day at school she used the term "y'all" to address another another group of kids. They made fun of her a bit...but she stood up tall and proud as you please and said "Well, it doesn't make any sense to call a bunch of girls "you guys", does it?"

They and the teacher agreed she had a point...and for a while "y'all" became sorta "chic" on a playground in Kansas! LOL

[HeatherDawn]

I only have personal knowledge of one reservation and it's because my school bus used to stop there but from my experience...guess what a reservation is-a bunch of brick houses that look alike. So, you may see one and not even know it. You may see an Indian and not even know it. And, yes, lots of us Okies are mixed-bloods. Do they want Indians to walk around with a headdress on so they can spot them? What the heck?

[azriverfan.]

Originally Posted by Goodpasture

First of all, there are no reservations in Oklahoma. The reason we are like whites is because we are integrated........My accountant is Choctaw. My attorney is Sac and Fox. One of my favorite friends is Kiowa. My son is Cherokee. My grandmother was Cherokee. And most the NA friends of mine quit token when they were in High School............

First of all, there are reservations in Oklahoma. You can see housing divisions with signs saying property of the Sac n Fox nation for example.

Yeah, and does your accountant speak Choctaw fluently? Does your attorney speak the language of the Sac and Fox? Does your son speak fluent Cherokee in the house? Does your friend cook Kiowa food? Probably not just like the other younger generation Native Americans in Oklahoma. Yes, I know a ton of people who claimed their grandparent was Cherokee but couldn't read, write or speak Cherokee. How many Native American restaurants do you see in Oklahoma when you are driving off I-240...oh that's right none. Is there a Native American television channel in Oklahoma devoted just to Native Americans in which the actors are speaking Cherokee?

Yes, and you have made my point for me. They are integrated so much so that i don't really feel a unique Native American culture or presence in Oklahoma aside from the names of towns or people telling me they are 1/2 Choctaw. It's not like the Hispanic culture in which people speak Spanish, have Mexican restaurants, have Spanish television etc. You can definitely feel a sense of diversity when you live in Phoenix. In Oklahoma, you will have some blonde haired blue eyed person telling me they are 1/16 Cherokee as if I'm supposed to get on my knees and say: "Wow diversity personified"

Let me restate this because I'm going to come accross as putting down Native Americans and that's not my point. I'm aware that Native Americans exist and are proud of their culture. However, I don't think there exists a pervasive unique Native American culture in the same sense that you see with the Hispanic culture in Phoenix, Cuban influence in Miami, Middle Eastern influence in Detroit or India Indians in New Jersey. When people try to argue that Oklahoma is diverse because of the Native Americans there, well I didn't really feel that. Outside of the names, it just felt like a typical southern state. I just felt the Native Americans were so integrated that their culture didn't really stand out. For the most part it just felt like the Native Americans who lived in the cities lived and acted like typical southerners. Again, I'm not arguing for or against integration. That's not the point. The point is it seems a bit misleading to say that OK offers so much diversity by using it's Native American population as an example when the reality is that it doesn't stand out in the same sense as other cultures.

[azriverfan.]

Originally Posted by HeatherDawn

I only have personal knowledge of one reservation and it's because my school bus used to stop there but from my experience...guess what a reservation is-a bunch of brick houses that look alike. So, you may see one and not even know it. You may see an Indian and not even know it. And, yes, lots of us Okies are mixed-bloods. Do they want Indians to walk around with a headdress on so they can spot them? What the heck?

I'm not arguing that point at all. I just take issue when Oklahomans try to boast about their diversity by discussing their Native American population when for all intents and purposes their Native American population is so integrated that their culture doesn't really stand out, not to the point that you could boast about OK being diverse. I mean I don't hear people speaking Cherokee in Penn Square mall. I didn't see any of my Choctaw friends say, "Hey let me take you to my favorite Choctaw restaurant off of Broadway" I don't recall seeing any stores in downtown Okc with signs in Cherokee draping store windows. However, you will hear people speak Hindi if you are in a shopping mall in Edison, NJ. In San Francisco, you hear people speaking Mandarin all the time. In Phoenix, you do see stores with signs in Spanish. Aside from towns being named Shawnee, Newalla and Okmulgee, the culture in Oklahoma doesn't feel any different than say Arkansas for example.

[karibear]

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

I'm not arguing that point at all. I just take issue when Oklahomans try to boast about their diversity by discussing their Native American population when for all intents and purposes their Native American population is so integrated that their culture doesn't really stand out when you spend time in Oklahoma. I mean I don't hear people speaking Cherokee in Penn Square mall. However, you will hear people speak Hindi if you are in a shopping mall in Edison, NJ. In San Francisco, you hear people speaking Mandarin all the time.

You might take into consideration the fact that there was a time not all that long ago when NAs were taken - often against the will of their parents, btw - to government boarding schools where they were forbidden at best, beaten at worst, for speaking their native lalnguages. That hasn't so far happened with the Hispanics or any of the newer immigrants, not that I've heard about.

[azriverfan.]

Originally Posted by karibear

You might take into consideration the fact that there was a time not all that long ago when NAs were taken - often against the will of their parents, btw - to government boarding schools where they were forbidden at best, beaten at worst, for speaking their native lalnguages. That hasn't so far happened with the Hispanics or any of the newer immigrants, not that I've heard about.

I agree completely and I'm not blaming NA. At the same time, call a spade a spade. You can pretend and say the Native Americans make Oklahoma "diverse" when in reality they don't because they are too integrated and their culture doesn't really stand out.

[Goodpasture]

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

First of all, there are reservations in Oklahoma. You can see housing divisions with signs saying property of the Sac n Fox nation for example.

You are, fundamentally wrong. Let me give you an example: You can buy a house in Osage County. Osage County is the Osage Nation, and their Lighthorse has the right to throw you in jail. The Osage Nation has Osage lands that they can build Osage housing on., You can buy a house across the street or next door. It is not a reservation. The Cherokee Nation consists of the majority of counties in NE OK. If you live there, you can buy houses there. If you are Cherokee you can get Cherokee housing. That does not make it a reservation.

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

Yeah, and does your accountant speak Choctaw fluently? Does your attorney speak the language of the Sac and Fox? Probably not just like the other younger generation Native Americans in Oklahoma.

Making a pretty big assumption aren't you? As I only speak a bit of Cherokee (I used to talk to the grandma with it) I don't try to speak other languages. but many of the people speak their mothers language and many more are taking language classes so their culture doesn't die off.

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

How many Native American restaurants do you see in Oklahoma when you are driving off I-240...oh that's right none.

do you know what Native American food is? Ever had Jerky? Ever eat Buffalo? How about Turkey? Canadian Goose? Ever tried that thing called corn? How about Potato? You like Green chili? How about popcorn? Pinto Beans? Ever had someone fix succotash? Just about EVERY restaurant in the USA serves Native American food.

Now are German Restaurants common or are they specialties? How about Scottish Restaurants......how often do you see haggis on the menu? Are Irish restaurants common or are they specialties? How often do you see bangers on the menu in every day cafe's? Yet you see corn, don't you?

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

Is there a Native American television channel in Oklahoma devoted just to Native Americans, I'm not talking about PBS.

Yes, RSU Channel 35 in Tulsa

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

Yes, and you have made my point for me. They are integrated so much so that i don't really feel a unique Native American culture or presence in Oklahoma aside from the names or people telling me they are 1/2 Choctaw.

No, the white man has integrated into our society so much that you THINK it is white, not Native American.

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

It's not like the Hispanic culture in which people speak Spanish, have Mexican restaurants, have Spanish television etc. You can definitely feel a sense of diversity when you live in Phoenix.

La Raza is new to this country.

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

Let me restate this because I'm going to come accross as putting down Native Americans and that's not my point.

No, you are coming across as someone who really doesn't think things through and has a minimal clue as to what is actually happening.

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

I'm aware that Native Americans exist and are proud of their culture. However, I don't think there exists a pervasive unique Native American culture in the same sense that you see with the Hispanic culture in Phoenix, Cuban influence in Miami, Middle Eastern influence in Detroit or India Indians in New Jersey.

Again, that is because the mainstream society is predominately Native American, not some Johnny come lately refugee.

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

When people try to argue that Oklahoma is diverse because of the Native Americans there, well I didn't really feel that.

That is because what we take as mainstream has been so influenced by 400 years of integration by the white guys with Native American peoples that it is hard to differentiate.

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

Outside of the names, it just felt like a typical southern state.

You mean the states where the five civilized tribes originated?

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

I just felt the Native Americans were so integrated that their culture didn't really stand out. For the most part it just felt like the Native Americans who lived in the cities lived and acted like typical southerners.

Again (still, rather) you miss the point and don't appear to understand. You seem to think we should all walk around like Tonto muttering monosyllabic grunts. That is the way your pendayhos (the edit thing here won't let me spell it right) and cholos do, isn't it? Make a big deal out of talking with an accent? dress like a punk? pretend to be tough? wave Mexian flags (even when they are from Columbia)? But us Native Americans found blankets and breech cloths uncomfortable and hard to work in. John Herrington decided traditional regalia didn't work too well when he carried the Chickasaw Nation flag into space.....he needed a flight suit. Since Mission Control didn't speak Chickasaw, he used English. Will Rogers, Cherokee, figured he would dress like a cowboy when he performed in New York. He also figured speaking English would work better in the movies. I think you need to either think a bit more about it, or maybe just quit talking for a while.....you are starting to embarass yourself.

[azriverfan.]

Originally Posted by Goodpasture

You are, fundamentally wrong. Let me give you an example: You can buy a house in Osage County. Osage County is the Osage Nation, and their Lighthorse has the right to throw you in jail. The Osage Nation has Osage lands that they can build Osage housing on., You can buy a house across the street or next door. It is not a reservation. The Cherokee Nation consists of the majority of counties in NE OK. If you live there, you can buy houses there. If you are Cherokee you can get Cherokee housing. That does not make it a reservation.

You are wrong. There are clear areas that are set aside for Native Americans that are not open to the public for purchase. I don't really feel like I need to argue this point because it's fairly obvious. The Osage nation doesn't represent all of the Native Americans in Oklahoma so to use them as an example that represents the others is foolish to say the least. Furthermore, you just contradicted yourself by alluding the to fact that they have their own forms of government (ie "their Lighthorse has the right to throw you in jail") which is indicative of a reservation.

Making a pretty big assumption aren't you? As I only speak a bit of Cherokee (I used to talk to the grandma with it) I don't try to speak other languages. but many of the people speak their mothers language and many more are taking language classes so their culture doesn't die off.

But you are not fluent are you? It's one thing to say you speak a "bit" of Cherokee and another thing entirely to say you speak it fluently in your home on a regular basis. How often do you find that among Native American populations. I speak a bit of Mandarin too and can communicate with shop keepers but that doesn't mean I "speak it'

do you know what Native American food is? Ever had Jerky? Ever eat Buffalo? How about Turkey? Canadian Goose? Ever tried that thing called corn? How about Potato? You like Green chili? How about popcorn? Pinto Beans? Ever had someone fix succotash? Just about EVERY restaurant in the USA serves Native American food.

Their cooking goes way beyond just listing ingredients. I think you know that but couldn't come up with a better response. That's as foolish as saying you have eaten Irish food because you have eaten potatos disregarding how the potatos are prepared among other things.

Now are German Restaurants common or are they specialties? How about Scottish Restaurants......how often do you see haggis on the menu? Are Irish restaurants common or are they specialties? How often do you see bangers on the menu in every day cafe's? Yet you see corn, don't you?

At least they exist. I've eaten in a German restaurant in Norman no less but I couldn't find a Native American restaurant there. And if you go to large metropolitan cities, there are a lot of German and Irish restaurants. Corn is not a Native American invention. They had corn in China and India for example among other countries. That's like arguing you eat Irish food if you have ever eaten a potato.

Yes, RSU Channel 35 in Tulsa

No, it's an oklahoma public broadcasting channel. It's not a channel devoted solely to Native Americans and there are no soaps in which the actors speak fluent Cherokee or another Native American language. I suggest you research your links before pasting them.

No, the white man has integrated into our society so much that you THINK it is white, not Native American.

Oh really, so the Native Americans taught the white man English, brick homes, and Christianity.

No, you are coming across as someone who really doesn't think things through and has a minimal clue as to what is actually happening.

Really, i just contradicted your points above rather easily. It sounds like you are reaching for straws out of pride instead of accepting the obvious.

That is because what we take as mainstream has been so influenced by 400 years of integration by the white guys with Native American peoples that it is hard to differentiate.

I'm not arguing that. You are getting defensive of Native Americans and are trying to rationalize why they are so integrated. I'm not disagreeing with you on that point. You are trying to change the argument. The argument is that Oklahoma is diverse because of the Native American population when the reality is the NA population is too integrated. You can't compare Oklahoma to a place like California in which groups like Hispanics, Chinese, Indians, Koreans and even Russians have a culture that is much more visible and prevalent in terms and can be FELT. Sorry but you don't feel that same sense of a unique culture in Oklahoma.

Again (still, rather) you miss the point and don't appear to understand. You seem to think we should all walk around like Tonto muttering monosyllabic grunts. That is the way your pendayhos (the edit thing here won't let me spell it right) and cholos do, isn't it? Make a big deal out of talking with an accent? dress like a punk? pretend to be tough? wave Mexian flags (even when they are from Columbia)? But us Native Americans found blankets and breech cloths uncomfortable and hard to work in. John Herrington decided traditional regalia didn't work too well when he carried the Chickasaw Nation flag into space.....he needed a flight suit. Since Mission Control didn't speak Chickasaw, he used English. Will Rogers, Cherokee, figured he would dress like a cowboy when he performed in New York. He also figured speaking English would work better in the movies. I think you need to either think a bit more about it, or maybe just quit talking for a while.....you are starting to embarass yourself.

Again, you are arguing an entirely different point. Never did I say that Native Americans should behave a certain way. I'm not passing judgement on Native Americans for their culture not being as prominent in today's society when compared to others. I've studied their history and there are several reasons for that which I respect. However, I just disagree with those who seek to boast about Oklahoma having a sense of diversity by alluding to their Native American population because it is too intergrated and much of it has been lost. That is the reality regardless of the reasons for that. Sorry but you can continue to come up with weak excuses but the NA culture does not pervade OKC in the same sense that the Hispanic culture pervades Phoenix as an example. Again, the argument doesn't concern why that is the case, it just concerns the fact that it is this way. If you want to argue the why, be my guest but I was never arguing that point. Again, I suggest you improve your reading comprenhension because you obviously lost sight of the argument.

[HeatherDawn]

where is the ignore button....

[EarthBound?]

Arguing with Goodpasture on a subject like this , is like bringing a knife to a gun fight