[azriverfan.]

Originally Posted by SeabeeBolt

Arguing with Goodpasture on a subject like this , is like bringing a knife to a gun fight

I would have liked to argue with him but unfortunately Goodpasture was arguing with himself. He thinks I was belittling the NA community and suggesting they should behave a certain way. That was never my point and I don't think the NA community should behave a certain way nor do they deserve criticism for their culture failing to be as visible as other cultures. There are historical reasons for that and I respect those reasons.

This thread asked if Oklahoma was southern or western. In my experience it is overwhelmingly southern. And when some tried to contradict that idea by saying the Native American influence makes OK less southern, I'm sorry but I had to disagree. The NA population just doesn't have the same cultural impact on the community to distinguish it from other southern communities like Arkansas and North Texas in my opinion. The NA population doesn't have the same impact on the Oklahoma population like the Hispanic pop has on Arizona and California. Thus if you move to Phoenix or LA, the Latin culture is prominent and noticeable. I didn't feel the Native American culture impacted OK in that manner and it was barely noticeable outside of the names of the cities and towns. Obviously, I know people in Oklahoma don't want to hear that because the term diversity has a positive connotation these days and people want to associate diversity with their home. Unfortunately, I didn't feel that sense of diversity in Oklahoma and it felt just like Arkansas and North Texas in regards to it's population and culture. The NA in Oklahoma are largely integrated so much so that it's cultural influence really wasn't felt. Outside town names and the "I'm part ________", I didn't really feel the impact of the NA population in Oklahoma.

[_redbird_]

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

The NA population just doesn't have the same cultural impact on the community to distinguish it from other southern communities like Arkansas and North Texas in my opinion. The NA population doesn't have the same impact on the Oklahoma population like the Hispanic pop has on Arizona and California. <...> Outside town names and the "I'm part ________", I didn't really feel the impact of the NA population in Oklahoma.

True, but then again you didn't go to school in Anadarko where the high school is about 60% Native. And you didn't have any Native friends to take you behind the buckskin curtain. Even Heather said she didn't know what a 49 was, let alone ever been to a 49.

Carnegie high school went to the State finals in basketball a couple of years back, and their starting five were all Kiowa. It just depends where you live and how much you interact with different people.

There are many whites in Oklahoma just like you, barely cognizant of another culture living in the same state as you. I majored in Cultural Anthropology and have always been fascinated by cultures different from my own. That is what makes the world beautiful.

Native Peoples may integrate into the dominant culture, but we keep our ceremonies closed to outsiders other than the pow wows, which are intertribal gatherings. How many people have been to a Stomp dance? When was the last time you went to a Brush Dance, or a Snake Dance? Even a commercialized gathering like Red Earth is still under the radar of most people in Oklahoma.

The Choctaw and Seminole bring their tribal roots from the deep south, the Pottawatomie and Kickapoo bring their ways from the Great Lakes, and the Wichita bring theirs from Texas way. And each settled in a different part of Oklahoma and interacted with society in a different way.

There will always be those who dismiss us as being non-existent ~ or low impact~ or living in the past.

I would venture to guess that the anglos who settled in Oklahoma brought parts of their culture with them and that is why we have a unique heritage in Oklahoma.

[_redbird_]

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

Does your friend cook Kiowa food? Probably not just like the other younger generation Native Americans in Oklahoma.

We still do have traditional food at our ceremonies. Meaning, it's all traditional Kiowa food, prepared the way it was before your Mayflower landed. As if cooking can be used as a clear demarcation of tribal impact or whatever passes for that in your version of Oklahoma.

But then you have never been around Indians in Oklahoma or any other state, have you? And yes, respectful palefaces are allowed to attend tribal gatherings.

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

Yes, I know a ton of people who claimed their grandparent was Cherokee but couldn't read, write or speak Cherokee. How many Native American restaurants do you see in Oklahoma when you are driving off I-240...oh that's right none. Is there a Native American television channel in Oklahoma devoted just to Native Americans in which the actors are speaking Cherokee?

Boy, you really are ignorant of what has been going on in Indian Country for the past 150 years, aren't you.

Karibear hinted at how the Native Languages were stopped. But you don't realize the magnitude of how many Indian children were forcibly removed from their homes, put into boarding schools, and forbidden to speak their language. My own father was TAKEN, without his parents knowledge or conent.

No white man in America can imagine his children being taken away from their parents against their parent's will or consent. It was the white man's attempt to eradicate the Indian culture. And it almost worked. Apparently, in your mind... well, we won't go there.

Since you brought up languages, let's start there.

There are many tribes who are teaching their languages to pre-schoolers, including my own. Did you know that? No. In fact, Kiowa is being taught at OU, and my sis is taking her third semester. Wow. Did you know that? No.

When my boss and co-worker attended our church, all the hymns were sung in our language and the preacher spoke in our language. Our tribal chariman was fluent in the Kiowa language. But, once again, you wouldn't know that, would you? Oh wise man of the AZ river, sigh, when will we learn to research before posting.

I go to the Indian clinic here in Wewoka and hear people conversing in Seminole and Creek language all the time. But... again... you are unaware of that too. *are we seeing a trend here?

Those who read these threads might remember me posting a Native Film series in Shawnee, and Norman, and a Native Radio station.

But you haven't heard of those have you?

And THAT is the reason you keep making uninformed remarks about people with Cherokee blood. The Cherokees are writing books in their own language, which I am sure is open to those with 1/64th Cherokee blood, you know, ... the ones you are NOT putting down?

Ugh, maybe you not know so much, white eyes. Me think you play in hot sun in AZ River too long.

There are so many Native People who are so much into preserving their Native culture, it is laughable to sit here and read your ignorant remarks. I am not going to do your homework, but here are a few links to help you educate yourself.

Indianz.Com > News > Oklahoma tribes work to preserve languages

Native American Links - Academic Info

How many indigenous American languages are spoken in the United States? By how many speakers?

Native American Times - Home

News From Indian Country

Native American Studies - The University of Oklahoma

Me go now. Cookum good southern dish, sofkey. You invited. Bringum family. We watchum movie, Pow Wow Highway. We eatum popcorn, makum heap laugh.

American Indian Film Institute

[Bass&Catfish2008]

Originally Posted by palladium121

End of story? Hardly. First off, get your history straight.

Indian Territory was the very last of the Confederate states and territories to surrender under Cherokee General (and former Chief) Stand Watie -- this app. 3 months after the treaty at Appomattox was signed! In fact, Indian Territory was opened up to white settlement with the Dawes Act of 1887 to -- among other things -- punish the "5 Tribes" for their having been such staunch Confederate allies.

Unlike Kentucky, West Virginia and Missouri, Oklahoma was never "compromise territory," nor did it (as Indian Territory) ever secede from the Confederacy.

Furthermore, the U.S. Census Dept. regards Oklahoma as a Southern state. Both geographically and linguistically most of Oklahoma falls into the Mid-South region, not to mention culturally and politically.

Only a tiny part of the state could even be considered Midwestern or even Southwestern, whether in terms of politics, culture, language or geography.

Oklahoma is definitely a Southern state.

Excellent observations. VERY well said and dead on!

[Synopsis]

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

I would have liked to argue with him but unfortunately Goodpasture was arguing with himself. He thinks I was belittling the NA community and suggesting they should behave a certain way. That was never my point and I don't think the NA community should behave a certain way nor do they deserve criticism for their culture failing to be as visible as other cultures. There are historical reasons for that and I respect those reasons.

This thread asked if Oklahoma was southern or western. In my experience it is overwhelmingly southern. And when some tried to contradict that idea by saying the Native American influence makes OK less southern, I'm sorry but I had to disagree. The NA population just doesn't have the same cultural impact on the community to distinguish it from other southern communities like Arkansas and North Texas in my opinion. The NA population doesn't have the same impact on the Oklahoma population like the Hispanic pop has on Arizona and California. Thus if you move to Phoenix or LA, the Latin culture is prominent and noticeable. I didn't feel the Native American culture impacted OK in that manner and it was barely noticeable outside of the names of the cities and towns. Obviously, I know people in Oklahoma don't want to hear that because the term diversity has a positive connotation these days and people want to associate diversity with their home. Unfortunately, I didn't feel that sense of diversity in Oklahoma and it felt just like Arkansas and North Texas in regards to it's population and culture. The NA in Oklahoma are largely integrated so much so that it's cultural influence really wasn't felt. Outside town names and the "I'm part ________", I didn't really feel the impact of the NA population in Oklahoma.

You're really out of your league here azriverfan; but like a train wreck it is hard to look away.

[EarthBound?]

Originally Posted by HeatherDawn

where is the ignore button....

Sorry HeatherDawn,

I don't want to find the ignore button on this subject. But I hear what your saying, some folks don't know when they've lost a battle.

I've always admired and respected what Goodpasture and RedBird have to say on the matters of the Native Americans subjects. Now all we need is for PtSum to join in and we'll have an unbeatable trio to read and learn from.

[TexasReb]

If for NO other reason (but I have lots of them) I would generally classify it as part of the South, it would be its official "State Meal."

To wit: Fried okra, squash, cornbread, barbecue pork, biscuits, sausage and gravy, grits, corn, strawberries, chicken fried steak, pecan pie, and black-eyed peas.


Meal of Oklahoma

Now if THAT ain't Southern, then I'll push a peanut with my nose from OK City to Richmond, Virginia!

P.S. Don't blame me if the link and details make you hungry! Hee Hee

[Synopsis]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

If for NO other reason (but I have lots of them) I would generally classify it as part of the South, it would be its official "State Meal."

To wit: Fried okra, squash, cornbread, barbecue pork, biscuits, sausage and gravy, grits, corn, strawberries, chicken fried steak, pecan pie, and black-eyed peas.


Meal of Oklahoma

Now if THAT ain't Southern, then I'll push a peanut with my nose from OK City to Richmond, Virginia!

P.S. Don't blame me if the link and details make you hungry! Hee Hee

Okay, I am officially hungry. But that is okay because it is lunchtime!

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by Synopsis

Okay, I am officially hungry. But that is okay because it is lunchtime!

You gonna have the "state meal"? If so, please tell me how long I have to get to your house and join in the feast!

After all, only a "damyankee" would serve up something so mouth-watering as THAT...and not invite neighbors and friends over! Hee Hee

[Synopsis]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

You gonna have the "state meal"? If so, please tell me how long I have to get to your house and join in the feast!

After all, only a "damyankee" would serve up something so mouth-watering as THAT...and not invite neighbors and friends over! Hee Hee

I am craving biscuits and gravy, chicken fried steak, and all of those fixins TexasReb.

Unfortunately, I am only having pizza for lunch. Delivery was just a phone call away. I would kill for some good, down home Oklahoma cookin'.