[colleeng47]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948

30 years later more violante more unruly than b4. spock lied
time out does not work.

I don't know what the answer is. In our family, my parents never raised a hand to any of us and we rarely (if ever) got into trouble. Among myself, sisters and brother, as well as nieces and nephews who are parents, none of us ever used corporal punishment, and (so far) all the kids in our family turned out fine -- aside from the normal trouble kids get into. As far as I know none of the kids in our family had behavior problems in school or anywhere else outside the house. Now, our kids would probably tell you we "talk" them to death, but it seems to be working. I have, however, seen kids that I know I would have a hard time NOT swatting their bottoms.......

[mkfarnam]

I've had a rubber hose taken to me and not for getting in trouble,,,but for not having the gutters washed down by the time the ole man got to the barn to milk the cows.

[Goodpasture]

Originally Posted by mkfarnam

I've had a rubber hose taken to me and not for getting in trouble,,,but for not having the gutters washed down by the time the ole man got to the barn to milk the cows.

So, did it make you want to do better? Did it make you angry? Or are you just glad to have survived it?

[mkfarnam]

Alittle bit of each.

[Goodpasture]

I think there is a pattern here.......the more you were hit as a child, the more you tend to hit when you grow up. People seem to spend more time learning how to train a dog than they do kids....and are frequently kinder to dogs.

You train a dog by positive reinforcement.....a treat when the dog does something good, repeat the exercise until the dog does it good, then reward THAT behavior. When you hit a dog, one of two things happens.....they get mean (do NOT try to hit or intimidate a terrier), or they cower and you break their spirit. Pretty much the same thing happens with kids.....except you can talk to them and they out grow (sometimes) the effects. Some times they don't.

I am not saying to be permissive, by any stretch. Limits must be established, but all I know is that when my parents whipped me, after 4th grade, all it did was make me mad. It never changed my behavior one bit. It simply made me make sure the folks never caught me again. And that break down in communication was a problem. communication with the kids is essential these days of drugs, AIDs and STD's (I heard today that 1 out of 4 teen girls, over 16, have an STD.....now THAT is a national tragedy).

[mkfarnam]

I was pretty much to myself by the time I got to High School, I've never hit a child, a woman or an animal.

[Goodpasture]

I wasn't directing that to you, bro, just a general observation........and it seems to be that to break the cycle of excessive violence we have to look at where it actually starts......in homes, against kids.

Do not misunderstand me. I shoot and hunt. Back when I was younger, fighting was a favorite pass time for me. In fact, it ranked right behind drinking and something else (I seem to remember that there was something else once upon a time......maybe I need to go to Washington and spend $5,000 to help me remember) as my favorite activities. At any rate, I am not a pacifist or a vegetarian or a guy who tries to get along with everyone......I understand the need for young men to test their courage and their skill and their ferocity and I applaud it......celebrate it , even. I just am trying to think through corporal punishment as a means of teaching kids to behave, and I feel it is rapidly losing its appeal.

[karibear]

Originally Posted by Goodpasture

I wasn't directing that to you, bro, just a general observation........and it seems to be that to break the cycle of excessive violence we have to look at where it actually starts......in homes, against kids.

Do not misunderstand me. I shoot and hunt. Back when I was younger, fighting was a favorite pass time for me. In fact, it ranked right behind drinking and something else (I seem to remember that there was something else once upon a time......maybe I need to go to Washington and spend $5,000 to help me remember) as my favorite activities. At any rate, I am not a pacifist or a vegetarian or a guy who tries to get along with everyone......I understand the need for young men to test their courage and their skill and their ferocity and I applaud it......celebrate it , even. I just am trying to think through corporal punishment as a means of teaching kids to behave, and I feel it is rapidly losing its appeal.

I got far more than my fair share of coporal punishment before I was 10, and most of the time I had no idea what I'd done to catch it. After that magic year, I finally figured out how to avoid getting caught doing anything at all.

What I find disturbing now is how much parents seem to be abdicating their responsibilities as parents - they want to be their kid's 'best friend' instead of the one who provides lessons in self-discipline and teaches them how to live. I'm sure we've all seen the toddler who runs loose in a store [especially grocery stores] creating havoc, while the mother just looks on with a fatuous expression and says something like 'Isn't he the cutest thing? He's just so curious about the world.' Right. And she's not going to be the one who puts everything back on the shelves, either. Then when he wants something she says he can't have, he starts screaming and she just tosses it into the cart because it's easier to get it than deal with him [or her].

Even more disturbing is the current tendency of parents to expect the schools to teach their kids manners and morality - the kinds of things they should have learned right along with learning to walk. How to say 'please' and 'thank you' and that you always treat others the way you want them to treat you. It should be ingrained in them by the time they start kindergarten. Instead, when their kid takes whatever they happen to want, they make excuses like 'he just wanted one like that, he's not a theif' - well, if he takes something that belongs to someone else, he IS a theif. Or girls getting into catfights - 'she just wanted to stick up for her friend' - maybe she needs NEW friends, do the parents even know who the friends are? Then when the schools fail to teach all the things the parents should have, it's the schools that get blamed. And when the schools take the time to at least try, it's at the expense of time that should have been spent on providing an education. Then, when the schools fail at both, the parents have fits all over again, saying the schools aren't doing their job. They forget that the school's only job is to provide an education in reading, writing, arithmetic, history, etc, not manners and morality.

[mkfarnam]

Originally Posted by karibear

I got far more than my fair share of coporal punishment before I was 10, and most of the time I had no idea what I'd done to catch it. After that magic year, I finally figured out how to avoid getting caught doing anything at all.

What I find disturbing now is how much parents seem to be abdicating their responsibilities as parents - they want to be their kid's 'best friend' instead of the one who provides lessons in self-discipline and teaches them how to live. I'm sure we've all seen the toddler who runs loose in a store [especially grocery stores] creating havoc, while the mother just looks on with a fatuous expression and says something like 'Isn't he the cutest thing? He's just so curious about the world.' Right. And she's not going to be the one who puts everything back on the shelves, either. Then when he wants something she says he can't have, he starts screaming and she just tosses it into the cart because it's easier to get it than deal with him [or her].

Even more disturbing is the current tendency of parents to expect the schools to teach their kids manners and morality - the kinds of things they should have learned right along with learning to walk. How to say 'please' and 'thank you' and that you always treat others the way you want them to treat you. It should be ingrained in them by the time they start kindergarten. Instead, when their kid takes whatever they happen to want, they make excuses like 'he just wanted one like that, he's not a theif' - well, if he takes something that belongs to someone else, he IS a theif. Or girls getting into catfights - 'she just wanted to stick up for her friend' - maybe she needs NEW friends, do the parents even know who the friends are? Then when the schools fail to teach all the things the parents should have, it's the schools that get blamed. And when the schools take the time to at least try, it's at the expense of time that should have been spent on providing an education. Then, when the schools fail at both, the parents have fits all over again, saying the schools aren't doing their job. They forget that the school's only job is to provide an education in reading, writing, arithmetic, history, etc, not manners and morality.

Very well said Kari.

[colleeng47]

Originally Posted by karibear

I got far more than my fair share of coporal punishment before I was 10, and most of the time I had no idea what I'd done to catch it. After that magic year, I finally figured out how to avoid getting caught doing anything at all.

What I find disturbing now is how much parents seem to be abdicating their responsibilities as parents - they want to be their kid's 'best friend' instead of the one who provides lessons in self-discipline and teaches them how to live. I'm sure we've all seen the toddler who runs loose in a store [especially grocery stores] creating havoc, while the mother just looks on with a fatuous expression and says something like 'Isn't he the cutest thing? He's just so curious about the world.' Right. And she's not going to be the one who puts everything back on the shelves, either. Then when he wants something she says he can't have, he starts screaming and she just tosses it into the cart because it's easier to get it than deal with him [or her].

Even more disturbing is the current tendency of parents to expect the schools to teach their kids manners and morality - the kinds of things they should have learned right along with learning to walk. How to say 'please' and 'thank you' and that you always treat others the way you want them to treat you. It should be ingrained in them by the time they start kindergarten. Instead, when their kid takes whatever they happen to want, they make excuses like 'he just wanted one like that, he's not a theif' - well, if he takes something that belongs to someone else, he IS a theif. Or girls getting into catfights - 'she just wanted to stick up for her friend' - maybe she needs NEW friends, do the parents even know who the friends are? Then when the schools fail to teach all the things the parents should have, it's the schools that get blamed. And when the schools take the time to at least try, it's at the expense of time that should have been spent on providing an education. Then, when the schools fail at both, the parents have fits all over again, saying the schools aren't doing their job. They forget that the school's only job is to provide an education in reading, writing, arithmetic, history, etc, not manners and morality.

OK, here's where I stick my neck out. IMO once women decided it was okay to "have it all" things at home began to fall apart. Regardless of how "fulfilling" your job is, or how much money you bring home, if the kids are running wild, the husband is drinking too much, or absent from home a lot, or in many cases was never there to begin with, it's still up to the woman in the house to pull it all together. I know this is an extremely un-PC opinion, but there it is.

Both parents are so overstressed and overworked, and busy providing lessons and classes of every sort for the kiddies (to overcome guilt at neglect?), that there really isn't time to be a mom and dad. I once worked with an extremely dedicated and professional teacher who told me when a parent walks into her classroom, and his or her face lights up when they spot their child, she knows that child is never going to give her a problem. How many overworked and overstressed parents even get to see their childrens' classrooms? I know the familiar line about two incomes needed to make ends meet, but I say shorten the ends, and let one of you take a part time job. Remember, kids will get your attention whether you like it or not. If you provide the positive attention, then you most likely won't get the negative attention, like a visit from the sheriff.

I'm done.